"Kids Play For Autism 2026" w/ Autism Canada

Shawna: 00:00:00

And why is that important to Autism Canada and this event in particular that happens on Autism Awareness Day.

Jamie: 00:00:06

Yes. The thing about that movement and play based is that it looks different for everyone. So, you know, we, we talk about all children.

They're, they're getting their beans out or they're, they're doing something to exert that energy and to have fun. And it's not necessarily the same for every child with children on the autism spectrum, they occasionally stim.

Brittany: 00:00:27

Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:30

And I'm Shawna, behavior analys.

Brittany: 00:00:32

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:34

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:41

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:47

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:48

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to make Neurodiversally Speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes, sometimes be discussed.

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Shawna: 00:01:37

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Neurodiversally Speaking. We're your host, Shawna and Brittany, and today we're diving into a really exciting topic, Play, movement and inclusion.

Specifically, we're talking about Autism Canada's event, Kids Play for Autism. And for our listeners who might not know, Kids Play for Autism is all about celebrating that play is for everyone.

Built around movement, joy and inclusion. Families, schools, sports teams, communities are encouraged to choose what works best for them.

And today we're going to learn more about how the event started, why is created, the impact it has, and how we can support the event.

Brittany: 00:02:12

Yeah, that's right. And joining us again is Jamie from Autism Canada.

Jamie's been deeply involved in shaping the event and supporting inclusive play for children on the spectrum. Jamie, we're so happy to have you back on the show.

Jamie: 00:02:24

Welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Shawna: 00:02:27

Awesome. All right, let's jump in. Tell us about the event so kids play for autism.

Brittany: 00:02:31

How? What is it?

Jamie: 00:02:32

Well, it's a, it's a fundraising event and also a way to spread that awareness and acceptance about autism. And it was actually started by a member of our community, a little girl named Laura who is on the autism spectrum.

And she wanted to contribute and she wanted to share her gifts and her talents and use that in a way to share autism for the rest of her community.

So she and her mom approached us and asked us if they could do a monkey bars challenge to raise funds for World Autism Acceptance day, which is April 2nd. And then it kind of snowballed from there. It became an annual event and it kind of grew into a little bit of a life of its own.

We've created team challenges and school challenges and a bunch of different things that any child can do using their own sort of play based or sport based or any kind of game that they enjoy doing to raise funds during the month of April.

Brittany: 00:03:41

So tell us a little more about her idea and how it got started. You said she was like doing the monkey bars. What did, what did that look like for her? And how did that kind of come.

Jamie: 00:03:48

Yeah, it was like it, she challenged herself to do monkey bars. And I, I don't know the specifics about whether it was more monkey bars every time or if it was an everyday sort of thing. Ok. She loves monkey bars.

And it was, she, she wanted to challenge herself to do more. She was five years old at the time. Right. It was, it was something fun for her to do.

Brittany: 00:04:12

Yeah. That's so cute. So adorable. And then her with her mom, you said, approached you and said, hey, can we kind of turn this into something?

And how long ago was that?

Jamie: 00:04:23

That would be two years ago now.

Brittany: 00:04:24

Two years ago. Okay, wonderful.

Jamie: 00:04:26

We're going for third year. Yes.

Brittany: 00:04:28

Amazing.

Shawna: 00:04:28

I love that.

And then I noticed a lot of, on the website about the event talking a lot about play being built around like movement and joy and inclusion and that there's no like, right way or single way to participate, which you sort of alluded to. And why is that important to Autism Canada and this event in particular that happens on Autism Awareness Day?

Jamie: 00:04:51

Yes. The thing about that movement and play based is that it looks different for everyone.

So, you know, we, we talk about all children, you know, they have their, they're getting their beans out or they're, they're doing something to exert that energy and to have fun. And it's not necessarily the same for every child. Some kids excel at sports, some do not.

And then with children on the autism spectrum, they occasionally stim. And that stim can be movement based or sound based or you know, all of those things that kids do in order to kind of level themselves back out.

So creating an event that is exclusionary is. It goes against everything that we do.

So we want to kind of honor every child and what they love and come to them at their level and say, how do you want to participate? Rather than here's what you can do to participate.

So love that they can come to us and say, you know what, I want to run around in circles or I want to speak spin or you know, I want to do monkey bars or skip rope.

So it's, it's every opportunity to get every child involved and not leave anyone out or leave anyone feeling like they don't have anything to contribute.

Brittany: 00:06:05

So it sounds really open ended and personalized too. Like you're not, you're there saying, I want to do jump rope.

And then there's no rule like, oh, they have to do jump rope five times or every day or anything like that. Right.

Shawna: 00:06:16

It's like they kind of create their

Brittany: 00:06:17

own rules around what that play looks like.

Jamie: 00:06:20

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:06:20

A hundred percent beautiful.

Shawna: 00:06:22

I love that. And later in the podcast, Brittany and I want to chat more about this topic, but one thing that you touched upon is like, what is play really?

And I, unfortunately for farms, I always blame this farm toy because when I was early in my clinical career and I was a direct therapist, one of our goals was always to teach the kids how to play with toys. Yeah. And so we'd get the farm out and then we'd teach them to, would walk the cow to the hay and eat the hay and we'd like do all these things.

But then at the end, like there's no joy. It wasn't any sort, like it wasn't what they wanted to do. And so what you're really talking about, I think that's so important is like what is play?

Right. And it's meant for joy and connection and self regulation and exploration. Right. And not about a farm or whatever.

And so I love that you guys are really bringing that to life and that participate in what brings you joy. And really that's what play is. Play isn't what maybe our, as a society, we've sort of always thought of it as like this farm toy.

It could be spinning in circles or all those unique ways that kids like to have fun. Typically developing children and neurodiverse children. Right.

I know even my own children are like spinning around sometimes like doing like, their play ideas are never what I

Brittany: 00:07:42

would have thought of.

Jamie: 00:07:43

Yes, 100%.

Shawna: 00:07:45

And it's, it's.

Jamie: 00:07:46

It's a good thing to do for the kids who are autistic because it gives them the opportunity to kind of get on their own little stage and say, here's why I'm special and here's how my autism makes me special.

And it's a really great thing for kids to kind of empower themselves in sharing what autism really is rather than what all the misperceptions about autism are. Right. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:08:11

I love that. And I think the event, the way that you've designed it too. Right. Makes it really approachable. And so if I'm autistic and in school.

School, and I wanted to participate in the event and I wanted to share it with my teachers or my classmates or my neighbors, there's nothing in particular that people have to do to participate. They just have to play, which we're definitely going to do.

Jamie: 00:08:29

Yeah. And the way we've created it allows for schools to do it as a school team or, you know, to.

To compete classes against each other and kind of let everybody do their own thing while spreading that awareness as a united front. So it's.

It's a great way, and it's a great way to show kids that they are accepted if, if their whole school is participating in the event and all these children are involved. It's.

It's kind of highlighting them in a way that makes them feel so empowered because everyone is now a part of this rather than, you know, just going out on their own to do something.

Brittany: 00:09:07

No kidding.

Jamie: 00:09:07

There's so many great opportunities there.

Brittany: 00:09:09

And so for anyone listening, wanting to participate, what.

Shawna: 00:09:12

What are those first steps?

Brittany: 00:09:13

What do they do and how do they. How does a child sort of tell their. Teach it and what does that look like?

Jamie: 00:09:17

Definitely, we have. We have toolkits that we've created. So there's. There's, you know, scripts are on the website. There's also posters and social media posts.

So people can share them on social media posts or include posters in emails to their schools. They can send them into school with their children.

And, you know, if their children want to bring this, bring this up, they can take this to whoever the appropriate people are. And there's also a bunch of different information.

There's options on, you know, different things that they can try for this month, different challenges, and everything is on our website. So there's everything pretty much laid out. And we've also created a network. The network is for people who want to participate.

So parents, people in schools who want to come in and kind of help spread that awareness.

So, you know, if there's a school trustee sees this and he wants to pop in and say, you know what, I'm going to share this with the school network, all that is in there to. To be able to kind of come in and talk with us and see what those best options are to share that and.

And get all the tools they need to get it started.

Shawna: 00:10:24

Yeah. I will say the website does have everything you need.

It is very easy to navigate simple buttons to find all your social media stuff or the different toolkits and resources that you guys have created. So definitely, if you're interested in the event, recommend the website. It's very easy to use and sounds

Brittany: 00:10:40

like exactly what Autism Canada stands for.

Shawna: 00:10:42

Right.

Brittany: 00:10:42

Is being so inclusive and you've really thought of all the different scenari, even when you're saying like a class challenge or something, it's not meant to be competitive. It's meant to be like cooperative. Right. And just fun and inclusive. And so I love that. And I love that it's not again, like a prescriptive.

You need to jump five times or whatever it is just like whatever feels good for you.

Shawna: 00:11:03

What are some of the. Or do you know off the top of your head, some of the challenges you've done?

Jamie: 00:11:07

Yeah, we have had. Oh, goodness. There's been so many. I know with my son it was riding his bike around the block.

Shawna: 00:11:20

Okay, nice.

Jamie: 00:11:21

Bike around the block every day for the month of April.

Brittany: 00:11:23

Oh, nice.

Jamie: 00:11:25

And there has been the monkey bars. There's been a slide. I believe there has been a ball, some sort of ball challenge that I

Shawna: 00:11:37

love it so very unique and focused on like what the individual is in. And then the other thing I'm thinking about, so one love it brings opens up this conversation. That play is different for everyone.

And I was thinking, for example, my son's in JK or sk, so kindergarten, and he's got a couple kids with autism in his class. But he doesn't necessarily always understand, like, how come they're playing differently or what is their stimming or something like that.

And I thought, what a beautiful way to like, at least start that conversation. So I love that. And then you've made it so accessible and personalized to the individual.

And then this idea of like setting a goal in this growth mindset for individuals that sometimes are missed in that I find that sometimes our neurodivergent friends aren't included in conversations about Having a growth mindset and setting personal goals and that sort of thing.

And so I love this idea that you mentioned, like riding my bike around the block every day or even if it was like once a week, like, whatever, it doesn't have to be every day. And just think that's like, so fantastic for, like you said, acceptance. And it's so in line with Autism Acceptance Day. Yes.

Jamie: 00:12:46

And they're so proud of themselves. My son is. He was 12 at the time, but it was. We had just gotten him a bike that he could ride.

Brittany: 00:12:54

Right.

Jamie: 00:12:55

So it was like, it was so exciting for him to be able to kind of work with that and grow with that and try something that he'd never been comfortable doing before. So it is a great opportunity for some kids to just dive into something, even if it's something they're not comfortable with.

It's like, you know, they have a challenge.

Brittany: 00:13:14

Yeah. Like a true challenge, right? Yeah.

Jamie: 00:13:17

Oh, so fun.

Brittany: 00:13:18

So you've. We've been talking a lot about how it's an awareness raising event or like a raising awareness of autism.

And that's part of it, but it's also a fundraiser. Can you talk to us a little bit more about what's the intention of the fundraiser and where are those funds going?

Jamie: 00:13:31

Sure. So we created the Community Acceptance, or Community Assistance Program. Sorry, two years ago.

Brittany: 00:13:38

Yep.

Jamie: 00:13:39

And this is a program that is designed to subsidize services and assessments that are not always financially feasible or are not available because of long wait lists. So that's across Canada.

And we created this with the intention of helping families who are in need of services or, you know, assessments for early intervention, and they can't get them and the wait lists are just too long.

So we do raise money using this campaign for the Community Assistance Program, and we provide those subsidies for service providers, assessments, therapies, anything that is needed throughout the year across Canada.

Brittany: 00:14:19

Fantastic.

Shawna: 00:14:20

And we know, like you said, those wait lists are long. Private therapy is very expensive.

And I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear how much families are paying out of pocket to get adequate supports.

And even we are just chatting with someone a couple weeks ago talking about the challenges of, like, you might get an assessment when they're really young, like at 2 or 3. And then it would be nice to have, like, an updated profile of where your strengths and areas of support might be as you've grown and develop.

But to access that type of thing. Right.

It's not going to be covered, like, it's not a going to be covered by our healthcare system or something like that, that's something you're going to pay privately for. And those are thousands of dollars.

And it would be so nice for families to be able to access those more frequently, to have understanding of their own unique learning profiles and strengths and areas of need. But they are out of reach for many, many people.

And the Community Assistant program is a really nice resource that families can take advantage of and work with a service provider on your list, on your website to find some services and then you guys provide some financial assistance, which is really nice. And so I guess here.

So you're using the fundraising dollars for the community assistance program and then is there anything else that you're funding with the fundraising dollars or it's primarily for that?

Jamie: 00:15:44

Yeah, it's entirely for our CAP program. A little bit of an idea on the scope of that. We have our funds that we pool for the year.

It's almost the end of February and we've already had over requests for over a hundred thousand dollars for funding.

Brittany: 00:16:01

Right.

Jamie: 00:16:02

So it's. Yeah, even our CAP program can't support the numbers that we want to be able to support. So the more we raise, the better off we are.

But if we, if we keep trending at this rate, we'll have requests for over a million dollars for the end of the year. And obviously that's all donation based, so. Wow.

Shawna: 00:16:21

And I do want to say, because I'm. We are on your service provider list. And so the amount of money that families are getting, I think is between 1 and 2 or 1 and $3,000.

And so for your request of a hundred thousand dollars, that's a lot of families that have put in those requests. Right?

Jamie: 00:16:38

Like it is.

Shawna: 00:16:39

Yeah, like breaking those, like, wow. Like a lot of people are looking for that financial assistance. It's definitely needed.

Jamie: 00:16:46

There's such a lag in every province between, you know, assessment time and then the time that funding is received.

And it's really our goal to get all of those early assessments and all those services that are so important early on for families that are just not being received even after a diagnosis. So we want to be able to support kids in their, in their needs and their early, their early interventions.

But we also want to support people who drop out of the system. So anyone over the age of 18 is no longer. Yeah, they no longer receive services or assistance or anything.

So we have a huge population to support with this CAP fund. And it's, it's so important to us that everybody get what they need and that families are supported.

Shawna: 00:17:28

Well, we're excited to be part of this fundraising mission and hope that we can help. Do you guys have a goal set for this year or you're just trying to build as big as you can?

Jamie: 00:17:38

Yeah, you know what? We just, we. Our goal is to support as many people as we can. So I mean, ideally that would be to support everyone who applies.

And then, you know, beyond that is to provide more than the minimum amount of funding that we possibly can.

Brittany: 00:17:53

So it's.

Jamie: 00:17:53

It's a big goal. It's. We don't write it down because that's

Shawna: 00:17:56

scary, but

Jamie: 00:17:59

we want to raise as much as we possibly can to be able to support the most amount of people.

Brittany: 00:18:03

And it only started two years ago.

So looking at last year's success this year, you're hoping that it continues to really expand and multiply because the applications are also multiplying, right?

Jamie: 00:18:14

Well, yeah. The more our program becomes known between service providers and just the community, it's going to just keep snowballing with the application.

So we want to be with that. And there's a lot. There's a lot of people who need some help.

Brittany: 00:18:30

Exactly. And we know this because we've had you on the podcast before, which we loved our discussion previously. But Autism Canada sounds like the.

This really big organization with all kinds of people. But we know Jamie. Right. It's just a few of you on your. Because it's quite a small team. Right?

Shawna: 00:18:45

No, there's.

Jamie: 00:18:46

So there's eight of us supporting the entire province. But one of the. One of the unique things about. Or the unique things about us is that we are led and guided entirely by autistics.

Shawna: 00:19:01

Right?

Brittany: 00:19:01

Yeah.

Jamie: 00:19:02

So it's. I think that makes us unique because we're coming from that perspective of what do people need? What do we need as an autistic community?

And we're better equipped to kind of walk in and say, this is what's missing. And we totally understand where everyone's coming from. So it's so important. And it just gives us that unique perspective of.

Plus, it makes us relentless. We are absolutely programs that we create and the support that we want to provide. And we just, you know, we.

We create programs in the middle of the night. And so it's. It's a small team, but we are absolutely mighty.

And we are never, ever going to give up the passion for doing what we do to help people who are in the exact same situations we are. Yeah.

Brittany: 00:19:52

Yeah. It's incredible.

Shawna: 00:19:53

Exactly. Thank you so much for sharing. I wondered not to put you on the spot.

But if you had a thought memory from the past couple years of, like, a really big success or like a sweet story to kind of close out with us.

Jamie: 00:20:07

Yes. Oh, we get them all the time. We have so many things that people remember or appreciate. And our team, my.

My team just goes out of their way to help people even above and beyond what is required of them. So the feedback that we get and just these personal messages that we get that are from people that are so grateful.

We've had families in the UK that we've actually supported just with, you know, answering questions and walking through different situations and things like that. So it's not the norm, but we do.

We get that outreach from all over the world because they do consider us the ones who are the experts on these sort of things. So it's. There's been a lot, and I'm so proud of my team for doing the things that they do because they just. It's 24 hours a day.

Brittany: 00:21:00

Yeah.

Jamie: 00:21:01

Wherever somebody needs help.

Shawna: 00:21:03

Exactly. Oh, I love that. And thank you so much for joining us today, Jamie, and sharing about the event.

We're super excited to participate in April or throughout the month of April with you guys.

And we've got some cool initiatives at our clinic, and then we'll certainly be bringing it home, too, with our kids, and can't wait to follow the journey of the event.

Jamie: 00:21:25

Great. Thank you.

Brittany: 00:21:26

Yeah, thank you. So Kids Play for Autism Again is what it's called. Check it out on the Autism Canada website. Like Jamie mentioned, all the resources are there.

Everything is easy, downloadable, shareable, and so spread the word and bring it to your classroom or to your neighbor or to your friends, because as Jamie mentioned, this is an incredible way to build that advocacy, acceptance, and autism awareness, but also where those funds are going. And so this is such a critically important fundraiser so that families can get.

Get that access to those very expensive assessments or therapy in a timely manner because they're often waiting on a very long wait list. So what an incredible event, Jamie. I just feel your passion coming through and your team, so thank you. Thank you, thank you. Just amazing.

And we can't wait to support it.

Jamie: 00:22:12

Great. Thank you.

Shawna: 00:22:14

Okay. I love that conversation with Jamie about the upcoming event, Kids Can Play for Autism.

It's been so inspiring to hear flexible and inclusive play, and that's definitely what we live and breathe. And so we're talking about, like, choice and variety. And I know when this came up, me and you were like, oh, my gosh, our favorite topic.

Brittany: 00:22:33

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we tell parents all the time, like, children communicate differently in their own way.

Like, every child is unique in the way they communicate, but they are also so unique in the way that they play. And I love that farm example. I think. I know we've said that before, but that reminds me, like, yeah, there really is no right way to play.

And I love, like partly I love doing these parent coaching sessions sometimes where I'm teaching them early language strategies, but I find not all the time, but there's. Sometimes a parent will come in and they're like, you can tell their play ideas are like the, the thing that's coming into this play experience.

And so maybe we do have like a marble set or something and the parent will just be like, put it on top, put it on top, or put it around the side and like really dictating the play. And you can feel like, hey, this doesn't feel like play. And so it's hard for me to explain. Like, like, I love that you're trying.

I love that you're sitting down, you're engaged, you're like fully in. How could we pivot this a little bit so that it feels a little bit less like directive or like parent led here?

Shawna: 00:23:31

Yeah, exactly. And that play is. What is play? Right.

And that's sort of what we talked about at the beginning is like, I think years ago we had this idea of what play is, but then when you take a step back, you're like, okay, what is the point of, of play? And that's where, like with the farm example. Right. Like, this actually isn't play. This is you imitating a bunch of sequences of actions.

Jamie: 00:23:55

You're right.

Shawna: 00:23:55

But it doesn't really meet that definition of what play should be.

Brittany: 00:23:59

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:24:01

And so at the clinic level, we find that play can be that natural area where we can start looking at their interests and exploring. What are you interested in and what does play look like for you?

Knowing that play serves this exploratory and self regulatory function for children and is a really cool way that they explore

Brittany: 00:24:23

and interact with their world and it brings the joy. And so if it's not joyful and it feels like force, then it's probably not play.

Shawna: 00:24:28

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:24:29

Yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:24:30

And I think with neurodivergent children, this is tricky. Right. Like you're saying, even with typically developing children, it's tricky for parents to know how to enter play.

And like I said with my own kids, their play ideas are never what I would have come up with.

Brittany: 00:24:42

Yeah. And I know your girls are the

Shawna: 00:24:44

same like, bringing in, like, all these different material that I would never have thought to work together and creating these, like, elaborate scenes.

Jamie: 00:24:52

Right.

Shawna: 00:24:53

Incorporating many different ideas. Whereas, like, I would be like, well, build a castle with these blondes.

Jamie: 00:24:59

Yes.

Shawna: 00:24:59

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:24:59

And it sometimes as a parent, it's hard because you're like, get almost intimidated by the idea of play. Like, what am I going to do with these Barbies? Like, do they have to have a conversation? What are they going to talk about?

Like, you know, and so it can be kind of intimidating. And so one of the things that we do is like, like follow that child's lead and see what they're doing.

So if they have a Barbie and they're putting it to bed. Well, put your Barbie to bed. Or if they have a car and they're running it up the wall instead of on the floor. Perfect.

Run it up the wall and watch it crash. And so, like f. See what they're doing. And then you can take your own version of that toy and then imitate.

Shawna: 00:25:30

Exactly. That's always our first option. We see play as sort of the point for connection and a point for teaching language and communication.

And so that's why we think play is important is. And why we recommend sort of taking a step back and looking at what. What are your interests so that we can authentically connect.

Brittany: 00:25:50

Right.

Shawna: 00:25:50

And not in this arbitrary, forced sort of play scenario where put the marble around and under whatever you're saying.

Brittany: 00:25:56

Exactly. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:25:58

We want it. We're seeing it more as this point of joy and connection.

And so by taking that step back and following their interests, then first we're showing them, hey, I care about you.

Brittany: 00:26:06

Right.

Shawna: 00:26:06

I want to be a part of your world. I want to see what's cool to you.

Brittany: 00:26:10

And this is where I absolutely love the value philosophy that we have in the clinic and that we use.

And we've learned through professional development together, sort of like this new way of doing therapy that we're not sitting there with a car and putting it up to my eyes and saying, look at me, look at me. Sort of like old school therapy to like force eye contact or something like that. But play, in fact, is like doing some of that for us in a way. Right.

Like it's.

If we build that trusting relationship with our clients, if we build that connection and we have fun and play together, then likely they're going to start building some of those skills sort of organically. Right. Like, they're gonna approach us more or they're gonna look up to us more.

And we hope that that just comes a little bit more organically rather than in this forced sort of like, I'm gonna force you to look at me for eye contact or I'm gonna force you to play with me this way.

Shawna: 00:26:57

Yeah. In fact, like, clinically, we have the data to back that up too. Yeah.

I used to, within session, we would track daily eye contact or maybe requesting an eye gaze shift or something like that. Now, we almost never track those things. Instead, we go in with our connection and play first, and then we'll do what we call, like a monthly probe.

So once a month, we'll kind of check in. How many times did their eyes shift throughout that interaction and that sort of thing.

And what we're seeing is that without any specific intervention. So I, like you said, a specific intervention meaning holding something up at your eye every time they ask for it or something like that.

And so without using any of those strategies, but simply using this idea of play connection responding.

Brittany: 00:27:43

Yeah, you know.

Shawna: 00:27:44

Yeah, we're seeing that come on its own. We're seeing that increase for some kids. No. Right. Like they might have a preference, which wouldn't be to look over towards something. Right.

And so for some kids. No. But for. I would say the majority of kids that we're working with, we're seeing sort of that natural shift. Same with responding to names.

Used to teach that really often in therapy. And there's still a time and a place where we might end up teaching it with a specific intervention.

But again, what we're sort of doing is probing for the first kind of three, four months of service by doing this joy and connection, creating these joyful play routines, and then seeing that they're responding to name is coming with that, because our voice begins to matter to them. It becomes a signal of, like, hey, these guys are talking. It maybe means something for me.

Brittany: 00:28:26

Right.

Shawna: 00:28:26

And so, hey, okay, I'll respond to that.

Brittany: 00:28:29

So cool. Yeah, I love it. And I do feel like that's. I feel so proud of the new way of sort of doing therapy.

And, you know, to a family, it might look like we're just playing. And then we get to say, like, no, but there's so much more to play and how, like, how cool and fun.

And then I. I think it's like, it's so joyful that I think parents are like, oh, yeah, this is great, because, like, I know my kid is really enjoying therapy, and it doesn't feel like this drill based, like, sort of really hard. I don't know. Drill base is the only word I can think of like therapy, Right?

Shawna: 00:28:59

Exactly. Yeah. Hopefully joy and fun.

Brittany: 00:29:01

Yeah, Right. Especially for little ones. Like no one wants to be drilling flashcards to a two year old.

Shawna: 00:29:05

Well, and again, I've done it. Yeah, right. I did that in my early days as a behavior technician. Right. What I found is that sure, they learned a lot of language.

They didn't use it spontaneously, they didn't use it to communicate. They could label all my flashcards.

Brittany: 00:29:19

Right.

Shawna: 00:29:19

But they couldn't interact in a way with me or they didn't know how or when to use the language that I taught them. So what's the point in teaching the language?

Brittany: 00:29:27

Right. And we've said this before, but we feel like that actually like unlocks like if, if the child can learn some of these basic.

Not basic, sorry, this versa.

It's not necessarily basic, but if they can learn some of those foundational skills, skills like attending to your voice or like looking towards you or reaching, if we get the foundation, then it unlocks like all of this opportunity for learning.

Whereas if we just go in and sort of drill these like hard skills, it, you know, what we're saying is like, it might not necessarily unlock everything. It's like could be just, nope. They learn that with that specific font

Shawna: 00:29:58

or that specific color or that specific

Brittany: 00:30:00

sequence that I know what to do when I'm not really learning, like how to learn. Yeah, exactly.

Shawna: 00:30:05

If someone shows me a flashcard, I'll tell you it's a cat.

Brittany: 00:30:07

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:30:07

But if I see a cat walking down the street, I'm not going to my mom and saying, hey mom, look, a cat. Right. I'm not making that connection. I'm learning in this very specific drill based way where someone's saying, what is it? I'm saying cat.

And then they're showing me another one. I'm saying bus. And they're giving me tokens along the way. And so I've done, I've lived that life. And I see it doesn't generalize out.

And so what we want to do, that first step is really noticing how they communicate what they like and what they don't like in really small ways ways. And play can be such a great way to see that. Right. When they're playing with things, how's their body reacting? What are they doing?

And with neurodivergent children, you might see them doing different things than neurotypical kids. You might see them hand flapping or sometimes we'll hear like a low hum.

Brittany: 00:30:55

Right.

Shawna: 00:30:55

Or like something like that. And it could mean like, but it also could Mean, dislike.

I've got a guy right now and if it is like this, this pitch of a hum, then they call it a sad cry. And then if it's a different pitch, then there he's like, they think that he's happy and so he's new to me.

So I'm trying to learn what those different pitches and when that shift is. And then as a behavior analyst, our job is to like operationalize that and make it so that anyone could pick up on like those two different cries.

I don't know how we're going to do it, but we're working on it.

Brittany: 00:31:27

We're going to do it.

Shawna: 00:31:28

Yeah, we're going to do it.

Brittany: 00:31:29

Absolutely. Because you. I love that behavior analysts can operationally define anything. Really.

Shawna: 00:31:34

We try our best,

Brittany: 00:31:36

but. And then, hey, if you want my help too, I love analyzing pitches. Yes.

Shawna: 00:31:40

We'll definitely be bringing you guys in. You know, the client, he's a quite complex, very fun. Okay.

Brittany: 00:31:45

And so what we're saying here too is like, we know that every child communicates so differently. And then like we're saying with this dude, or I think he's a dude, I don't know, dudette, we're saying he's a non vocal communicator.

Shawna: 00:31:59

Right.

Brittany: 00:32:00

And so this person is not saying, I don't like that. They're not saying like stop or don't do that or I don't want to play that way.

So what we have to do is get curious and notice those really subtle ways that he is communicating and hearing here. It's like as subtle as a hum, a different pitch in the humming. And so it's not even like, oh, now he's crying.

Like there's visible tears or there's visible like distress. It's literally just a different pitch. And so we have to get curious and see how are they communicating.

And so I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but it's, it's, it sounds really easy, but it's actually quite complex. And it's this idea of noticing their indicating behaviors.

Shawna: 00:32:37

Exactly. And like for this guy, for example, I was thinking while you're talking with that hum, I'm looking for that.

I want to differentiate between those two hums. But then I'm also looking for what does he do right before that hum?

Brittany: 00:32:47

Right.

Shawna: 00:32:48

That's less obvious. The hum is auditory. Right. So people are more likely to pick up on it. Is there a body shift change?

Is there another sort of behavior that he often engages in person before that hum? And Then as the detective, I want to then respond at the behavior before the hum sometimes. Right. And be like.

Especially if it's like, I don't like this.

Brittany: 00:33:07

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:33:07

Before you escalate, I want to come in and be like, hey, I see that movement. I see that you don't like this. Tell me no.

Brittany: 00:33:13

And it could be a shoulder raise. It could be like anything. Right. Like, that's the idea.

It's like, we got to get curious and observe because it could be as subtle, as subtle as, like, eye blinking or like, anything. Right.

We've seen kids where, like, that little shoulder raise days could mean that they're not enjoying something, and then we see the behavior escalate after that. Or maybe the shoulder raise means they love it, but we don't know until we get curious.

Shawna: 00:33:35

Exactly. And so really, it'd be nice if we had cameras on ourselves. Yeah.

Brittany: 00:33:40

Or in therapy.

Shawna: 00:33:41

Yeah, in therapy.

Or like, I think, like, I use the same strategy at my house as well with my typically developing children is we've got our big behaviors that everyone knows. Right. Like, I know when my kids are crying and screaming or throwing their bodies on the floor. Right. That they're really upset and disregulated.

And so it's like, those behaviors are more obvious now. I want to think, like, what happened right before that? And in behavior analysis, we call them precursor behaviors. So what happened before that?

Big one. Right.

And then now when I see those little or precursor behaviors, or I shouldn't even say little or more subtle precursor behaviors, I'm coming in right away with those language models. Right, Right. And that this is, again, where we're seeing, saying, there's so much opportunity for language and communication in play.

Brittany: 00:34:21

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:34:21

And so back to our thesis. Not neurodivergent individuals often have fewer. In behavior analysis, we say topographies, but fewer. Yeah, I know.

Brittany: 00:34:34

I hate the word typographies.

Shawna: 00:34:36

I say that all the time. And I'm like, I don't know what that means.

Brittany: 00:34:39

It sounds like to you. It's like saying floor.

Shawna: 00:34:42

Yeah, we use it all the time. Yeah. So they have, like, fewer ways that they communicate. And so, like in an assessment, for example, a typically developing child.

Child, we might see that they point, they lead, they shift their eye gaze, they use their words. These are all the ways that they communicate the things that they want.

Brittany: 00:34:59

Okay, so they're all different topography.

Shawna: 00:35:00

Yes. Those are all different topographies. And then with neurodivergent kids, we often see they don't point or maybe they don't lead either.

They go and stand somewhere and hope that someone knows. Like, if I'm standing over here, I want the cookie ease.

Brittany: 00:35:12

Yeah. Or they'll do the like, reach and grab or like pull you to something.

Shawna: 00:35:15

Yeah. They might have the hand leading, but they might not have the pointing.

And then because often their imitation is lower than typically developing peers, they're not picking up some of those, like, novel ways that we communicate too. Right. Like thumbs up. Or in a play routine, I might like do a silly face, like put my hands on my cheek.

And then my typically developing child would imitate that.

Brittany: 00:35:36

I wish you could see your cute face. You're like doing like, like the screenplay. But it's so fun in a play interaction. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:35:43

It's like I would like. Then my son maybe might do that to me to indicate I want to do that again.

Brittany: 00:35:47

Do that more.

Shawna: 00:35:48

Right. In neurodivergent children, we're less likely to see those things.

And then therefore, the ways that they communicate are often like, not what we're looking for maybe. And then we're missing those communication opportunities.

And clinically, that's where I often think that's where we see like head banging come in or some of those more worrisome self injurious behaviors is like we're missing sort of those precursors. And then they end up head banging. And then people are like, oh God, you really don't like that? I'm not going to do that again.

And then they're like, okay, I got to bang my head to tell people I don't like stuff, I guess. You know?

Jamie: 00:36:22

I know.

Brittany: 00:36:22

I was just thinking, how did we jump from like these behaviors to head banging?

But no, I see what you're saying is like, if we don't identify those precursor or just like what happens before, then it can to someone look like, oh, they just start head banging out of nowhere.

Shawna: 00:36:36

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:36:36

But it's not really out of nowhere. We got to get curious, see what that antecedent is or the thing before. And that's what we call that precursor our behavior.

And it might be like they're getting agitated, those shoulders are raising and they're really like, you can sense they're uncomfortable in their body. And then the head banging starts. But if we don't notice that small subtle shift, then it could look like headbanging is just coming out of nowhere.

Shawna: 00:36:56

Exactly. And so if I think the head being is a way that they say, I don't like this thing. Yeah. Right.

Then I'm gonna try and look for Right before the head bang, maybe they go and then they bang their head.

Jamie: 00:37:07

Right?

Shawna: 00:37:07

So as soon as I hear the I'm gonna try and take away like the toy that I offered them or whatever that thing is, right. That's bothering them and that's how we build trust. Trust, right.

Like, the more that I'm consistent with them and being like, hey, I got you, and you go, oh, I know you don't like that. And I take it back. So then I'm building that trusting relationship where they're like, oh, okay, you get me. Awesome.

And but then I'm also opportunities to work on that communication piece. So no.

Or with our non vocal friends, we sometimes will put in a speech generating device or we have these communication buttons and so just press that and tell me no and I'll take it away.

Or you know, I'm trying to figure out what you like, but if you don't like it, also tell me because I don't want to keep offering you stuff you don't like either.

Brittany: 00:37:46

So can we take a step back then and define these indicating behaviors? Because what we look for in the clinic is like, and it's sort of a category and then there's two different subcategories, right?

There's indicating behaviors and then there's for like and then for dislike. So let's start. Like, what are some of those things that parents could be looking for in those subtle indicating behaviors for like.

So, you know, for some kids, it's so obvious they like something because they're smiling and they're telling you I like it. But for a lot of our neurodivergent learners, it's not that easy.

Shawna: 00:38:16

Right. And that's where play really does come in. Right. And so they're playing independently. What does their body look like?

You know, they've been interacting with their favorite stuff. Like, we know they're often with trains.

And so I can infer that they probably really like trains because they select that from all the stimuli or all the toys I have available to them. And then I'm going to be looking. What's their body look like when they're playing with the toys? Right. Are they laying on the ground? Are there.

Is their eye gaze, like, seems focused? Is there a noise that they're making? Is their shoulders raising? Right.

All those little things I'm gonna just look at, you know, what do they look like when they're happy and relaxed?

Brittany: 00:38:53

Okay. So in the clinic we actually take data on this, right? We have all of these, like for trying to Figure out what are.

What is this child's way of showing that they like something? We'll put them sort of. I was gonna say put them in a scenario where we know they like something. Sounds so clinical. We'll play with them. Yeah.

Take data on. Okay. What are we noticing? What are their hands doing? What are their eyes doing? What's their body doing? What's their voice doing?

And then that's how we really break down what those things are. And so you're looking at the small movements, the gestures, the vocalizations, their facial expressions, and it may not be what you expect.

And so if they're making, like, a really serious face when they're playing with trains, but, you know, they love trains. That could mean serious face means they really like something.

Shawna: 00:39:36

Exactly.

Brittany: 00:39:36

And so it's not necessarily like, oh, when they do that serious face space, we might think, oh, yeah, we have to, like, sort of change our way of thinking. Right. And say, like, that serious face means joy.

Shawna: 00:39:46

Yeah, yeah. And that's communication.

Brittany: 00:39:48

Right.

Shawna: 00:39:48

I think, again, this is like reframing communication beyond just the words that you say. Right, Right. A smile for me tells you, hey, I like what you just said. Right.

And, like, all these body language that we do to each other tell us a lot of information. Right. And how do we read that information? Well, and I think for neurotypical people, like, people read faces all the time. Yeah.

Often gets me in trouble. I feel like my whatever I'm thinking is always written all over my face. And so for children, it's the same, you know? And so how can I help?

Read your body language to see what you're trying to communicate to that outside world, you know, and what's your body automatically communicating and then boiling it down even more. When are you trying to communicate with someone else else too. Right. How do you indicate not just that you like something.

How do you indicate you want more of something? How do you indicate you don't want more of something? And that's where those dislikes come in too. Right. How do you tell me, I don't like this change.

I don't like that you did that. I don't want this food.

Brittany: 00:40:50

So let's give some examples of those, like indicating behaviors of dislike. Because again, it's not always so obvious as someone just like, saying, know, Right?

Shawna: 00:40:58

Yeah, exactly. For dislikes, we might. Common ones obviously pushing things away. Typical developing children will often see that at first and maybe like a noise.

But again, with neurodivergent individuals, you might see a head hit. You might see A head bang. You might hear a, like, a hum. You might even see hand flapping, which sometimes we think means they're happy.

But for some individuals, it might be rough, regular, like, regulatory function. And, like, I don't like this, and I don't feel safe. And so I'm hand flapping.

Brittany: 00:41:27

Right.

Shawna: 00:41:28

And so, yeah, there's so many.

Brittany: 00:41:30

Right. So many. And there's not. It's not like a prescriptive list that your child's going to do all of these things.

What we're saying is you got to get curious. Observe what's happening in those moments where, you know, they're happy, relaxed, and engaged and what are they doing.

And then pick up the those times when you think they're distressed or not liking something and what are they doing. And so we're. Again, I feel like this sounds so simple, but in practice, I think it's a little more challenging.

I notice in the clinic when I'm training, training new team members, I'll say, like, wait, pause for a second. Notice how his head turned away.

Jamie: 00:42:00

He.

Brittany: 00:42:00

That's an indicating behavior of dislike. And I don't think you necessarily picked up on it. Like, I have to teach you this. Like, hey, notice how he turned his head away.

Or notice how he's, like, taking one step in the other direction. You might want to pause right now because he's kind of telling you no.

Shawna: 00:42:12

Yeah. Or like, I'm done with this.

Brittany: 00:42:14

Yeah. This activity.

Jamie: 00:42:15

Right.

Brittany: 00:42:16

Right. It might not be. Yeah. So like, a version of. It's no, but it's just, like, I'm done for a minute.

And so we don't want to keep, like, blowing blank bubbles at his head if he's, like, walking away.

Shawna: 00:42:23

Right. And from a therapeutic perspective, I don't want to give you all the bubbles just because either.

Brittany: 00:42:29

Right.

Shawna: 00:42:29

I want to create these communication opportunities, and I want you to know that your body's also communicating to me. And so when you're walking away from me, if that's one of your indicating behaviors. Some kids love to pace when they're really excited.

Brittany: 00:42:39

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:42:40

And so, again, you got to get really curious there and know your learner really well or know your child really well. And then the other thing I was going to say, say is sometimes as an observer, it's so easy to see.

Brittany: 00:42:51

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:42:52

And so sometimes it can be helpful to just set up, like, your phone or something to videotape an interaction, and then that way you can go back and see, too, and you'll say, like, oh, man, I missed that. And like, I do that my. Like, myself.

You know, we'll find things that I've missed for sure, and be like, oh, and that can give me, like, really good insight for the next time that I come in, too.

Brittany: 00:43:11

Especially if you're genuinely engaged in the play, which we want you to be, you know? And so. So, like, of course, in the clinic, we set things up very clinically, and we're, like, going through things systematically.

But as a parent, what you want to do is, like, read sort of those hidden meanings behind what your kid's doing, and, like, it's a way to tune in to tell you that they're communicating in their own way with some of these, like, really subtle ways.

Shawna: 00:43:34

Yeah. And then when you see them, respond to them, reinforce them in my ABA terminology.

And so if they don't like it, you use negative reinforcement and take it away, you know, move it out of the way. If they do like it, you could say, oh, I love this.

Or, you know, provide some sort of positive affect or a positive comment because you see that they liked what they were doing or didn't like. And so we want to be there at the earliest part. Right. And start tuning in and reinforcing that so that then the child's learning too.

Like, hey, I should do more of this. Right. That's what reinforcement is, is anything that's, like, increasing the likelihood of a behavior in the future. Right.

And so anything that we're doing to let them know, like, hey, do that again. You know, hey, I got you. Right, Right. We're reinforcing at that point, rather than when they head bang, we're like, oh, God, got the message.

You do not like this. I'm taking it away. I want to teach the child that other lower behaviors or less severe or less risky behaviors also result in telling me, hey, no.

Brittany: 00:44:34

Yeah, exactly.

I like how you define reinforcement there, too, because I think sometimes if you're not in our world, you can automatically think of, like, stickers or saying, like, good job. And that's not what we're saying.

Shawna: 00:44:44

No.

Brittany: 00:44:44

We're saying, like, by reinforcing, it could just be, like, doing more of that thing that you like.

Shawna: 00:44:48

Right.

Brittany: 00:44:48

Like building. Like, if we're playing with bubbles and, like, blowing bigger bubbles and more bubbles, like, that's what the reinforcement is.

It's not us going, good job.

Jamie: 00:44:56

Yes.

Shawna: 00:44:57

And no tokens involved.

Brittany: 00:44:59

Exactly. Bring more of the joy.

Shawna: 00:45:01

Yes.

Brittany: 00:45:02

And then we expect that that will increase the behavior, which is. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:06

Not we expect. We know.

Brittany: 00:45:08

We know. Okay.

Shawna: 00:45:10

True reinforcement will increase the behavior in the Future. And that's why I get back to the staff too, right?

Is if you're not seeing this behavior increase in the future, then what we're doing is not reinforcing. And that's a whole another topic Britney's dying to dive into. I'm a bit more nervous about it. But this idea that reinforcement too is customized.

And so me seeing, saying, oh, I see that you like that might not actually be reinforcing if the child's not really listening to me. Right. If they're more self directed, and certainly with autism we see that, then me saying, like, hey, I like that, or even a high five. Right.

Might actually be punishing to them. Like, why are you messing with my play here and making me pause to give you a high five.

Whereas those bigger bubbles or something like that, or I think they're indicating behaviors of dislikes and like being able to remove something or kind of switch, like redirect or change the environment in some way are easier to reinforce. Like you're taking the thing away or that sort of thing. And that's usually functioning as a reinforcer if we've got a true dislike.

Whereas the likes are a little bit more.

You got to get a little bit more curious and try probably a couple of other strategies and see what really does the child respond to, you know, what seems to actually be reinforcing for them. Right. Versus what do we think as parents is reinforcing?

Brittany: 00:46:23

And I like how you said the high five example. I want to go back to that.

I know it's a minute ago, but as a young early therapist, definitely that would have been the way that I would reinforce someone is like, like that, like, good job or like high five. And I think like that actually it might be stopping me from playing. And so that's not really reinforcing.

Like I think it is as the clinician or the mom or whatever, hey, high five. But for that child it may not be. And so like, yeah, and how many

Shawna: 00:46:45

times have you left your hand out? And like, even your typical developing child hasn't come back and given you that high five. Right.

Even our typically developing children are doing that too. And so again, that's where we want to get, like, really, really curious and like, what's specific to you and what works for you?

Brittany: 00:46:59

Right? Okay.

So we are talking about indicating behaviors and it really boils down to like being curious and being that curious observer and being sort of like noticing those subtle, subtle cues when your child is happy, relaxed and engaged.

What are they doing to show you that they're enjoying something, and then noticing those subtle shots shifts when they are sort of, like, moving away or whatever it is to show that, hey, maybe I'm all done, or maybe I don't love this. So that is such an important topic that we'll probably keep bringing up on the podcast because it is newer to us as, like, clinicians and stuff, too.

And so it sounds really easy, but I don't think it is. So now let's move on a little bit to use that we talk about also, like, using play to expand a child's interests.

So we know that with a lot of our neurodiverse friends, as per sort of the, like, definition and the, like, the criteria of autism can involve, like, restricted and repetitive play and so. Or interests. Restricted and repetitive interests. Right.

And so for some kids, they like this, like, one thing, and they really, really, really like that one thing. And so let's dive into, like, how do we use play to expand their interests? And then before we even do that, like, why, like, why is that important?

So do you want to address, like, why? Why? That's why that's something we even want to do, like, hey, they love trains. Like, great, let's embrace that.

But then why do we want to, like, explain. Expand their play interest? Explain that.

Shawna: 00:48:26

Right? Yeah, exactly.

I think our interests are what allow us to connect with people, allow us to learn language, allow us to make learning fun and joyful and participate in the world. You know, like, there's lots of things that I'm not really interested in, but I do have to, like, know about or I have to be able to talk about.

And so that's really why. Right. We want to help them connect with others and also acquire language. Right. So that they can be successful in whatever they want to do, you know?

And so that's our why. Now, when we're talking about expanding interest, though, I'm not talking about going from trains to Barbies, you know? Right.

And then that's where these indicating behaviors become really helpful. Right. I'm not going even from trains to air airplanes.

Brittany: 00:49:10

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:49:10

If you tell me you don't like airplanes. Cool, man. You don't have to like airplanes. And so I'm not sitting in vehicles only. I'm using you as my guide, right.

To say, like, you're telling me that you really like trains because we're always playing with the train tracks and stuff. And then my job as a detective. So say, now I've. I've got a good inventory of indicating behaviors of likes and dislikes.

Then what I'm going to look at is, okay, where plane is trains, what do you like about these trains? Is it that the wheels spin and some of our learners do like to sit and watch the wheels spin on the track, moving on the track? I don't know.

Brittany: 00:49:45

I think it looks extra cool.

Shawna: 00:49:48

Is it, like, I don't know, Thomas the Tank Engine. You just love all the different trains.

And so if I think it's, like, maybe more factual, like you're just, like, all knowledgeable about trains, then I might try airplanes. Right. Maybe like, other mechanical things.

Brittany: 00:50:00

I was just thinking, though, your example with the wheels as an adult on my. My brain is like, wall. Trains and airplanes are so similar. They're both in the same category of transportation.

Jamie: 00:50:10

Right.

Shawna: 00:50:10

But if what I like about it

Brittany: 00:50:12

is the wheels, then, like, the most airplane toys don't have wheels. Exactly.

Shawna: 00:50:17

And so I might see those indicating beers of dislike, like, hey, stop.

Brittany: 00:50:20

Yeah, exactly. Whereas, like, the adult coming in, I'm gonna be like, no, this is so similar. You like trains or you also like airplanes?

No, they're actually so different in shape inside. Well, you know.

Shawna: 00:50:30

Yeah, exactly. And at the clinic, we often say, so, like, what we'll do is we'll try and figure out, like, what do we think you like about this?

And then we'll be proposing some different play ideas. And by proposing, I mean, we're like, modeling.

Brittany: 00:50:40

Yeah. Play with them.

Shawna: 00:50:41

Seeing if the child gives us those indicating behaviors, like, do they come and approach us and show us, like, hey, I'm kind of interested in that airplane, or do they keep playing with the train? Right. And if they keep playing with the train.

Brittany: 00:50:50

Cool.

Shawna: 00:50:50

I might bring the airplane out later, you know, and see.

Brittany: 00:50:52

Right.

Shawna: 00:50:53

But if they never approach the airplane, then I think it's pretty safe to assume I can move on from the airplane.

Brittany: 00:50:58

Right.

Shawna: 00:50:59

Or the poor flight farm. You know, I'm gonna put the farm away if they don't come and see it.

And so what we really want to do is look at, okay, what do you already enjoy and why do you enjoy it? Or why do I think you enjoy it? Right. And then at the clinic.

Sorry, what I was going to say is we often say, like, you'll probably have 90 failures before you find a success.

Brittany: 00:51:16

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:51:17

And so you just keep going and sort of looking at how they respond. And that's something to keep in mind, too, certainly with those special interests.

So, like, trains, you might find that you approach them on the trains, and then they're moving away. They're giving you those indicating Behaviors of dislike. Because the trains is something they actually just like to do alone, maybe.

Brittany: 00:51:34

Ah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:51:34

And then maybe I'll leave the trains. The trains are just something you always do alone. And you're not really interested in my ideas right now with that.

So let's move on to your other interest, which is the Alphabet. Right. And let me see if we can do something cool with the Alphabet.

And so those are some of the ways that we might use their interests and follow their lead. Right. I want to expand their interest, but I'm using them to help guide what that looks like.

Brittany: 00:51:56

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:51:57

Um, and so then I'm gonna observe and response. I'm gonna look at those, indicating behaviors. And like I said, if they're moving their body away from me, I'm gonna say link.

Okay, I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and move away from you.

Brittany: 00:52:07

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:52:08

Um, and let them know, like, hey, I hear you.

Um, and then if they are staying near me and they're looking at me and kind of following what I'm doing, then I'm gonna keep going and see if they kind of follow along with me. And so it's really finding, like, what is the. We've got sort of two terms that we're using right now. Somatic matching and sensory matching.

And I feel like both are natural needed. Like, is it the theme that you like? Like, you really like transportation or you really like trains?

Like, let's say they really like Thomas is a bridge, then. Oh, darn. The name of this other train show is escaping me. But is my bridge like this other train show? And see if you like that?

Or is my bridge other vehicles? Or is my bridge.

Brittany: 00:52:46

I don't know.

Shawna: 00:52:47

Things with magnets, because the train toys often have magnets connecting them. You know, I'm like, that's my theme matching.

Brittany: 00:52:52

And I want to pause you for a second, because bridge here has nothing to do with a bridge. Playing with trains.

Jamie: 00:52:56

No.

Brittany: 00:52:57

Like, we're not talking about a bridge, like, as a structure. We're talking about building a bridge to, like. I know you like trains.

And so how am I building a bridge to, like, introduce something else that my child might enjoy? So it's like a. What do you call that? Like, a figurative bridge? I don't know.

Shawna: 00:53:12

It's not a metaphor. I don't know. I feel like you should.

Brittany: 00:53:15

Yeah. So just wanted to clarify that.

And so, yeah, you're saying, like, if I think they really like Thomas the trains, then can I slowly, potentially introduce this other train show? Or if I Think they like the wheels on the train. Then I'm slowly maybe bringing in a long car that also has wheels that they take.

And that would be like a similar.

Shawna: 00:53:34

It'll be more of the sensory side.

Brittany: 00:53:35

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:53:36

I think depending. I don't know, it depends why they like the wheels.

But if I'm thinking like, okay, they like watching things spin, like, visually the world just looks cooler to them. Great. Okay, let me find other cool stuff that spin. Like a pinwheel, like spin. Spinning top. Right. And see if they like those things too.

So that's what I'm. I'm starting with what they like. And then I'm trying by introducing some new stuff, I'm modeling how to play with it and seeing if they respond.

Right. And then I'm going to look, follow those indicating behaviors.

Brittany: 00:54:01

Do you like it?

Shawna: 00:54:02

Do you not like it? And then I'm going to use that as an idea.

And then what's happened here in this example for is if I have the train and then now I've discovered they like spinning tops.

Jamie: 00:54:11

Right?

Shawna: 00:54:12

Now I've got all this new language. Right. I've got all these spinning tops. They're all different colors. They have different. Different animals on them. They spin at different speeds.

Right.

Brittany: 00:54:20

And put them on stuff or under stuff and like think about all the different ways the language can come in or put stickers on it. So this one's a lion spinner. Right. Or whatever.

Shawna: 00:54:28

Exactly. And so that's where that expansion really comes from is like, now we've maybe exhausted what I've got for trains.

And so I'm thinking about something new or with my trains, maybe. They always love to play with the trains on a train track.

Brittany: 00:54:39

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:54:39

What I'm going to do is I'm going to try out my Magna tiles. Are you interested in driving the train on my Magna tiles? And so we're still keeping the trains. Y Just changing it up slightly.

So now instead of train tracks, I've got the lots of new language we can talk about with these Magna tiles and the things that are associated with that.

And so that's really where the rationale behind it or like that importance comes from is really it's providing those new opportunities for interacting language and learning.

Brittany: 00:55:03

Yeah. Right.

Shawna: 00:55:04

And then we're just celebrating any participation.

Brittany: 00:55:06

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:55:06

And so you might find that first time that you're playing with the trains on the magnetiles, they come, drive a train down and then go right back to the track.

Brittany: 00:55:12

Y.

Shawna: 00:55:12

Cool, man. Thanks for showing me.

Jamie: 00:55:14

Y.

Shawna: 00:55:14

Then the next time I bring it Out, Maybe they're coming and doing it a couple times, and we're gradually building that out. And that is really where we start at the clinic. Right. Is like it.

It's like one second in a routine, and then they're going back to their preferred interest.

And then we're seeing that naturally, as we sort of respond to their indicating behaviors, we're able to increase the amount of time that they're engaging with new stuff.

Brittany: 00:55:34

And that's not a failure. When they play with it for one second and then go back to their. That's actually a success. So.

Shawna: 00:55:39

That's exactly right. It's a huge success.

Brittany: 00:55:41

Yeah. And so don't think like, oh, I introduced it, and he wasn't really that interested. He only played it for a second.

Shift your thinking and go, wait, he played with that for one second. And then we can slowly build out that time.

Shawna: 00:55:52

Exactly. And then the other rationale that we haven't really talked a lot about is that just coming to mind is the flexibility piece.

We know being flexible can be hard for neurodivergent individuals. Maybe that black and white thinking and the ability to adapt and think outside the box box more. Less concrete thinking. Right.

Are all sort of goals that we're working on. Right. And so this idea of play, flexibility becomes a big goal too.

Jamie: 00:56:20

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:56:21

And again, not that you have to, like, imitate my farm actions. Right. But can you be flexible and collaborate and cooperate with me to do this cool play thing together?

Brittany: 00:56:32

Right.

Shawna: 00:56:32

And so that would be another rationale, too, is to support flexibility and tolerance around new experiences and that things are not always the same.

Brittany: 00:56:39

I was thinking driving that train through the farm.

Shawna: 00:56:41

Yeah, There you go. If they like the farm, then go ahead. If they don't, do not bring the farm out. Poor farms. Yes.

Brittany: 00:56:49

Perfect.

Shawna: 00:56:49

Okay.

Brittany: 00:56:50

I feel like we've talked about a lot of things that sound really simple but are really challenging. And so if we were to come back and say, you know, why this matters.

We started in the podcast talking with Jamie about how with our neurodivergent friends, we want to celebrate all forms. Forms of play, and that there's no one single way that's the right way to play.

And so whether it's a farm or a spinning top or a train, if the child enjoys it and they're bring. They're. You're seeing that sense of enjoyment and they're learning, engaging, then that's play, and that's valid, and we want to celebrate that.

And so the event and the awareness event that the kids can Play event through Autism Canada is really honoring every child and their way that they want to play. And so. How wonderful. So we recommend you check that out and follow that through, too, and bring it to your classroom or your neighbor, like we said.

Then we started talking about play and the importance of play. And we've talked about this before. We'll talk about it again. It's so, so important.

But we're really shifting the way that we teach new concepts and teach language and teach different skills at the clinic because it's all now based around play and the wonderful things that we can do with play.

And so when we're playing with a child, you know, we want to watch for those subtle cues to know if they like something or if they don't like something. And that we call it indicating behaviors. That's a very, like, clinical term that we're using.

But for you as a parent, you can just think of, like, I'm going to observe and get curious about, see what my child is doing when they're doing something I know they really love. And so what's their face doing? What's their shoulders? What are their shoulders doing? Or, like, what is their body doing? And they.

Then I'm also going to notice when I think they're kind of ready to move on. How do they subtly tell me that? And it may not be with those words, like we know with a lot of our learners.

Shawna: 00:58:34

Exactly, exactly. And so I feel like our thesis here today is like, inclusive, joyful play is for everyone.

And then noticing those interests really helps engage children meaningfully and provide more opportunities to engage in the world. And events like the Kids Can Play for Autism really help.

Brittany: 00:58:54

Right.

Shawna: 00:58:55

Spread that awareness that play is anything that sparks joy and potentially is serving a regulatory function. And so thanks to Jamie for joining us today and sharing about that Kids Can Play for Autism and everyone for tuning in.

Our takeaway is to take a step back and notice those interests and cues, even those really small, subtle ones, and ways to connect and communicate and explore the world alongside your child or the, your student or whoever you might be supporting. And we want play to be joyful, flexible, and inclusive.

Brittany: 00:59:29

So thanks so much for listening today.

If you really liked our conversation or you had questions or you were inspired or maybe confused by anything we talked about, I know we unpacked a lot today. Please give us some feedback. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach out to us by email or on Instagram, send us a message.

We're love hearing from our listeners, so send us some feedback like I said, or share with friends if you think they might enjoy it. Subscribe so that you're getting updates with our podcast every time a new episode comes out.

Check us out on Instagram for some of our fun ideas and play things because we just absolutely love what we do and we're so passionate and we just love that you're along for the ride. Before we go, we want to remind our list listeners the topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 01:00:18

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also say treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 01:00:30

See you next time.

Shawna: 01:00:31

Bye.