Episode 22

Eating & Feeding: Instagram vs. Reality

Let's face it, navigating the world of picky and selective eaters can feel like trying to solve a Rubik's cube...while blindfolded! In this intro to our "Eating & Feeding" series, we'll discuss the ins and outs of feeding our young neurodiverse kiddos while breaking down the differences between picky and selective eaters, and share our own relatable mom struggles to dish out real-life strategies that actually work.

We'll also tackle common misconceptions by reviewing instagram advice vs reality and provide actionable strategies to help you create a more positive mealtime experience by understanding the developmental phases of eating to practical tips on how to encourage variety - without pressure.

Timestamps:

(01:25) - Welcome

(12:24) - Selective Eating vs. Picky Eating

(17:09) - ARFID and Picky Eating

(28:03) - Mealtime Challenges

(30:11) - Dinner Routines and Strategies

(43:41) - Separate Meals As A Strategy

(48:31) - Encouraging Kids to Try New Foods

(51:48) - "They'll Eat When They're Hungry.."

(01:01:20) - The Shift in Feeding Therapy Approaches

(01:05:33) - Take Home Message

Episode References:

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Transcript
Speaker A:

One thing that would help delineate if it's true selective eating or picky eating.

Speaker A:

Oftentimes, kids will eat at daycare very well, but then not at home very well.

Speaker A:

And that's where you can get some insight into whether it's picky eating or that selective eating, because selective eating will have that pattern over time.

Speaker A:

Picky eaters, they're more susceptible to environmental arrangements.

Speaker B:

Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Speaker A:

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst.

Speaker B:

And we're your hosts at neurodiversely Speaking.

Speaker A:

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Speaker B:

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Speaker A:

Let's get started.

Speaker C:

Welcome to the Neurodiversity Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shauna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

Speaker C:

While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed suitable only for those over the age of 18.

Speaker C:

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates.

Speaker C:

Connect with us on Instagram eurodiversityspeaking.

Speaker C:

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at helloeurodiversityspeaking.com neurodiversely speaking starts now.

Speaker B:

Hey, and welcome back to Neurodiversely Speaking.

Speaker B:

I'm Brittany, speech pathologist.

Speaker A:

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst.

Speaker A:

Today we are talking about picky eating or selective eating?

Speaker A:

Both.

Speaker A:

I am personally excited to chat about it because I've been having some selective eating troubles at my own house and me and my husband are clashing and I have to keep reminding him of the strategies.

Speaker A:

And so today's episode is really focused on that advice that you hear online.

Speaker A:

I've been wanting to do it for a while where they tell you to do something or not to do something.

Speaker A:

And I think one of the difficulties with Instagram or any sort of social media advice is that it misses, like, all the nuance of, like, when this is a good strategy and when this isn't.

Speaker A:

Or I also think if you don't understand the why behind it, then you think it's like, bad advice.

Speaker A:

So, like, the thing my husband and I are battling about right now is just take a bite, just have one more.

Speaker A:

Just take a bite.

Speaker A:

Try it, try it.

Speaker A:

I'm like, stop talking.

Speaker A:

Anyways, the pressure.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And so I'm excited for today's topic.

Speaker A:

We will be looking at picky eating today.

Speaker A:

And like, common Instagram advice, we will not be talking about very severe picky eating.

Speaker A:

And we'll chat about that at a future episode because the strategies have to be different, but we will give some strategies for how to look at the differences and how to consider whether you've got sort of like, a problem on your hand or is this, like, sort of what we expect?

Speaker B:

Mm, exactly.

Speaker B:

And this is something that we've both lived through in our own homes in terms of, like, going through different phases.

Speaker B:

Like, when they first started eating, they were amazing.

Speaker B:

Like, hey, olives, no problem.

Speaker B:

Avocado, perfect.

Speaker B:

And now kind of going through, and it's like, oh, I only.

Speaker B:

I know, like, if I put cucumbers in their lunch, they're going to eat it, but anything other vegetable, it's coming back to me, like, so we both sort of lived and breathed that.

Speaker B:

But we're not just talking about our own personal experiences today.

Speaker B:

We have a lot of research that we've gone through, and we'll put a huge handout in the show notes with lots of resources that.

Speaker B:

That you can look to for parents and professionals to talk about this as well.

Speaker A:

Yeah, this is a topic I'm very interested in, and I'm excited to share same.

Speaker B:

And so before we dive in, I wanted to take a step back and look at how we, as professionals, both look at feeding from our unique perspectives and in our disciplines.

Speaker B:

So many people don't know that as a speech pathologist, we actually learn a lot about feeding and eating and swallowing.

Speaker B:

People think of us as just sort of like the person who's going to help us lisp or an R or something like that, but we learn a lot about it.

Speaker B:

And so eating, you know, from a speech perspective.

Speaker B:

Sometimes I'm pulled in if a client is experiencing some difficulties with feeding, because I'm gonna look at, like, how's their swallowing?

Speaker B:

Are they pocketing food?

Speaker B:

Is everything safe about how the food is kind of going in?

Speaker B:

Are there differences in their oral structures or muscles or coordination that might make, like, eating harder?

Speaker B:

And then we also learn a lot about food textures and consistencies.

Speaker B:

And so sometimes I'll.

Speaker B:

It's certainly not my personal area of expertise.

Speaker B:

I don't do this a lot, but I A lot of training and knowledge in it.

Speaker B:

And so sometimes I'm happy to, like, answer those Questions if it comes up at the clinic.

Speaker B:

And I'll be the one to say, like, let's make sure everything is going fine structurally before we jump into anything else.

Speaker B:

And I'll turn it over to you to talk about the behavior side of things.

Speaker A:

Yeah, I think there's like so much to unpack.

Speaker A:

And that's really what this episode is about, is looking at sort of the why behind the advice, looking at patterns, looking at learning history with food, looking at strategies that will be effective based on behavior analysis and learning learning theory.

Speaker A:

And so really like bringing together what's happening in the body, what's happening in the world around us, and how our parents responding and how can we really support kids to develop more willingness to try.

Speaker A:

Food is always my goal at the end of the day.

Speaker A:

Like, I want my sons to be able to go for dinner at someone's house and feel comfortable.

Speaker A:

And whether that's advocating, like, I don't like that, but I would like for them to feel comfortable going and sitting somewhere, not feeling nervous that they're going to be served something that they don't eat.

Speaker B:

And so like most things or like everything that we do, collaboration is so important too.

Speaker B:

So we're bringing in different perspectives from both of our fields today.

Speaker B:

And yeah, excited to dive in.

Speaker B:

So let's talk about sort of what's actually normal in terms of selective eating and picky eating, because it is actually expected.

Speaker B:

Like, picky eating is extremely common, especially between the ages of 2 and 6.

Speaker A:

And that's where I'm having trouble at home.

Speaker A:

Yes, I have a three year old and a five and a half year old.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And so we would call this developmental food selectivity.

Speaker A:

And it's normal.

Speaker A:

And CH tends to be like variable in its preferences and the way that it shows up.

Speaker A:

And as well, it tends to not follow as much of a pattern as when we get into the like true selective eaters.

Speaker A:

So today what we want to chat about is those picky eaters, not the selective eaters.

Speaker A:

So selective eaters typically have like a very small amount of food that they eat, and so they're rigid around their food.

Speaker A:

They probably have different rules, like you were saying, with those textures and consistencies, or just like overall avoidance of eating.

Speaker A:

Sometimes we'll use those terms interchangeably, but for the sake of the podcast, I'm going to separate them with like picky eaters versus the selective eaters.

Speaker A:

The selective eaters being something more severe and persistent versus the picky eaters.

Speaker A:

And so selective eaters are often linked with like arfid and then also autism and other neurodivergence.

Speaker A:

And so when we're looking at picky eaters, like you said, it's sort of normal, right, for that to happen between two and six and then you'll see sort of that decline after that.

Speaker A:

And I think that's where these strategies come in, is helping so that that does decline after the age of six.

Speaker A:

And then it seemed like from the research that we gathered, like the incidence rate was really un.

Speaker A:

Had a high range, up to 50% of children, but also as low as 13%.

Speaker A:

I think in our real world it's like 100% of children are picky eaters at some point.

Speaker B:

That's what I found too.

Speaker B:

There's so much variability in that stat.

Speaker B:

And it's like what parents report could be even higher than that.

Speaker A:

50 For sure.

Speaker B:

Interesting, but hard to sort of gather that data.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And then I also learned a new clinical term, food neophobia, the fear of new foods.

Speaker A:

And that this again is common.

Speaker A:

And again, I can tell you my three year old right now, if you put anything in front of them that's new, that's yucky, I don't like that.

Speaker A:

And that's new behavior for him.

Speaker A:

Wasn't doing that sort of before the last four weeks.

Speaker A:

And then you might see like some preference for sameness, but they're still flexible.

Speaker A:

Like again, if we look at true selective eaters, they might only eat this single brand of crackers, only like one type and one brand.

Speaker A:

Whereas like a picky eater might eat like mostly crackers, you know, or like my kids would love to eat chicken fingers every day, you know, but they're.

Speaker B:

Okay to have like chicken fingers.

Speaker B:

McDonald's or like a different brand here.

Speaker A:

And there or any other like fast food would also suffice for that.

Speaker A:

So they mostly just want like those delicious salty things.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Whereas with selective eating you would most likely see that it's like a specific brand of ketchup.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And that sort of stuff.

Speaker A:

So that's where again, like the advice has to be different because the underlying mechanisms are different.

Speaker A:

And so for the parents out there with picky eaters, some hope that the research really showing that only 3 to 5% remain persistently picky in the long run.

Speaker B:

That's good news.

Speaker A:

And so if you are worried about your kids eating, one thing that I like to chat with families about is to think about how many foods they actually eat.

Speaker A:

And I think when you start listing those out, you realize like, okay, they actually do eat a lot of Food, but they do give me like feedback about mostly dinner, I find anyways.

Speaker A:

And so for picky eating, one of the things that we're looking at is like, do they eat foods in different categories?

Speaker A:

Are they eating fruits and vegetables?

Speaker A:

Are they eating meat?

Speaker A:

Are they eating protein, dairy, etc and like, are they getting sort of like their nutrients met?

Speaker A:

Are their nutritious needs met?

Speaker A:

And usually we'll see like 20 plus foods that they eat.

Speaker A:

So that may seem still like not a lot of food, like only 20 foods.

Speaker A:

But if they're eating from all different categories and have at least 20 plus foods in their repertoire, then we would categorize that more as picky eating.

Speaker A:

Selective eaters often have only like three to five safe foods, so quite different.

Speaker B:

And so kids are still learning, especially when we're talking about this age range like your kids are right now.

Speaker B:

Mine are just like, like a tiny little bit older than that, but not much.

Speaker B:

They're still really learning like the sensory tolerance and like, you know, interoceptive.

Speaker B:

We talked about that with our OT that we met with on the podcast earlier.

Speaker B:

But like the sensation of in your body.

Speaker B:

So honest.

Speaker B:

I know, I'll say to my kids, like, well, is your belly full?

Speaker B:

Like, let me know when your belly's full instead of that, like one more bite, we'll get into that.

Speaker B:

But you know, they're still developing that.

Speaker B:

So they're like, oh yeah, my body's telling me I'm full.

Speaker B:

But then two minutes later if I offered them like anything, anything.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, I want from the snack cupboard.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And so like, and I think the sensory piece is interesting too because I again, my youngest right now, is often overfilling his mouth and then ends up gagging and spitting it out.

Speaker A:

So he's actually not eating his dinner.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

He's chewing it and then spitting half of it out because he's put too much in his mouth.

Speaker A:

And I have to remind my husband, I'm like, I remember when our older son did this.

Speaker A:

Like this was a phase.

Speaker A:

He grew out of it and he's like learning, I don't know how much food to put in his mouth at a time.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

I don't know if you'd say it.

Speaker B:

That way, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's him exactly.

Speaker B:

And so like we tip, typically see some sort of improvement through this phase, like some gradual willingness to try some new foods.

Speaker B:

I know my 9 year old the other night tried my.

Speaker B:

We went out for dinner and my husband had like fish and chips and she's like, never wants to have fish.

Speaker B:

And she was like, hey, can I try that?

Speaker B:

And she actually liked it.

Speaker B:

Yes, that's a huge win.

Speaker A:

She like initiated it.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And that's really like again, the end goal.

Speaker A:

I don't care what foods you eat, as long as you're eating a balanced diet and you're allowed to have your own preferences.

Speaker A:

But I want you to feel confident or at least calm to try something else and that it's not stress inducing that you have new food in front of you.

Speaker A:

Like if someone said, hey, do you want to try this?

Speaker A:

Your first response should not be a stress response.

Speaker B:

Yeah, right.

Speaker A:

I want you to be open minded to this idea.

Speaker B:

And this was a restaurant where there's like no kids menu.

Speaker B:

So almost everywhere we do go, there'll be like, okay, perfect.

Speaker B:

It's pizza or chicken nuggets.

Speaker B:

Right, right.

Speaker B:

But this was like, no, we are not having those sort of typical things that they're used to.

Speaker B:

And so, yeah, you see that like gradual willingness to try new foods, fewer battles over that, and then being able to eat in those, like different things, like I said, like at home, at daycare, or in a restaurant or at a friend's house.

Speaker B:

And so that's like what we see like with typical improvement with.

Speaker A:

I was just gonna add in there like one thing that would help delineate if it's true.

Speaker A:

Selective eating or picky eating with the different environments is oftentimes kids will eat at daycare very well, but then not at home very well.

Speaker A:

And that's where you can get some insight into whether it's picky eating or that selective eating.

Speaker A:

Because selective eating will have that pattern over time.

Speaker A:

And the preferences stay the same.

Speaker A:

Are quite rigid with picky eaters.

Speaker A:

They're more susceptible to environmental arrangements.

Speaker A:

And so the fact that I take care everyone else is eating their quinoa and sweet potatoes, they'll be more likely to eat that than if I serve that to my 3 year old at home.

Speaker A:

He's definitely gonna say to me, mommy, this looks yucky and not touch it.

Speaker B:

Right, right, exactly.

Speaker B:

And so there is that difference.

Speaker B:

And we both had that experience.

Speaker B:

We're like, yeah, they are literally eating like quinoa and, you know, chickpeas at daycare.

Speaker B:

And I'll get a whole food report of the 15 different types of food they tried.

Speaker B:

But then we get home, it' a whole different story.

Speaker B:

And so, yeah, well, we both had that sort of phenomenon.

Speaker B:

But one of the strongest research findings is the connection between selective eating, again, not picky eating, but selective eating.

Speaker B:

And Neurodivergence.

Speaker B:

So that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this today.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And I think within that, also thinking about picky eating.

Speaker A:

And is my child truly a selective eater?

Speaker A:

And do they meet that definition?

Speaker A:

Because I have lots of families that will come in and ask for support with their child's eating.

Speaker A:

And then when we dive into it, their child is eating actually a wide variety of foods across categories.

Speaker A:

And so our approach is like a little bit different than if it's a true selective eating.

Speaker A:

Because again, the underlying mechanism there we would attribute to some sort of stress response or anxiety related to food intake versus picky eating probably has some other factors at play in the environment that we can sort of play around with.

Speaker A:

So if we're looking at some of the research for selective and picky eating, we really see that co occurrence, right, where neurodivergent individuals are often picky or selective eaters.

Speaker A:

So up to 63% is what we found.

Speaker A:

And I think it makes sense, right?

Speaker A:

We know that neurodivergent individuals have different sensory processing, probably different sensory sensitivities, some mental rigidity maybe that could be impacting things, oral processing, like you talked about.

Speaker A:

And so all of those differences sort of make eating a different experience.

Speaker A:

And that's why, again, I think the topic is so interesting.

Speaker A:

If you're a parent of a, like a typically developing child or a neurodivergent child, there's all this advice out there and like, what do you do with it?

Speaker A:

And then with autism, that is within autism and then within adhd, we're seeing sort of the same things, different sensory sensations, different interoceptive input or output where they might not get hung, might not get senses that they feel hungry or the reverse.

Speaker A:

And then certainly with both populations, ADHD and autism medication can an impact too to their eating and whether they feel hunger or not.

Speaker A:

And so we want to think about those things.

Speaker A:

Some of the signs that we might be looking for, and I think we've talked about this a lot, is those safe foods.

Speaker A:

So how many safe foods are in their repertoire?

Speaker A:

And then do they have any rigid rules around food?

Speaker A:

And then are they avoiding eating?

Speaker A:

Are sort of some of the things that as a parent I might look into where I want to make sure that they've got safe foods across categories.

Speaker A:

Um, and then I think that's where these strategies can really be helpful.

Speaker A:

If they have like 20 plus safe foods and are working across or in.

Speaker A:

And they're in a variety of categories, then that's where this Instagram advice can be helpful if your child has like true ARFID or selective eating.

Speaker A:

The Instagram advice, some of it maybe is helpful, but it's likely not addressing like the core of the issue.

Speaker B:

Right, right.

Speaker A:

And so sometimes what we might see is that they are like, have a strong preference for only like one category of food.

Speaker A:

And I often say to parents, like, I don't blame them.

Speaker A:

I also would love to eat a McDonald's hamburger every day if that was a possibility for me.

Speaker A:

But again, we really want to look at the underlying mechanism there that's driving the selective or picky eating.

Speaker A:

And then their obviously their health and well being, like their nutritional, how much nutrition are they getting and their weight as well, are they over underweight and that sort of thing.

Speaker A:

And um, so that's where again, ARFID just is like a little bit more or like true selective eating is just a little bit more complicated than picky eating.

Speaker A:

Because in picky eating they're usually meeting their nutritional needs maybe at the bare minimum, but they're getting those needs.

Speaker A:

And there's like enough foods that I can serve you dinner and lunch and like that sort of thing.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And then just because we've thrown the term out, ARFID stands for avoidant restrictive food intake disorder.

Speaker B:

And here again, we're talking about something very different than just like picky eating.

Speaker B:

And this is like highly restrictive that sometimes we do see in our neurodivergent clients and families.

Speaker A:

Stay tuned for picky eating too.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And so where we start to see that concern is when that pattern stops being flexible and starts being driven by that restriction, which I would attribute to like a stress or anxiety response.

Speaker A:

In typical picky eating, a child might say, no thanks to broccoli today, but then like the next time that we serve it, they're fine with it.

Speaker A:

Or like I was talking about before, eat it at daycare but not at home.

Speaker A:

And so selective eating, you're not going to see that.

Speaker B:

It's like so much more rigid.

Speaker A:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker A:

So some of the things we want to look for is limited food repertoire that doesn't expand over time, which we've talked about.

Speaker A:

Strong sensory distress.

Speaker A:

So we didn't talk about this.

Speaker A:

But often with neurodivergent individuals, we're gonna see avoidance of certainly smells.

Speaker A:

We'll see strong reactions to that.

Speaker B:

You have one of those tuna?

Speaker A:

Yes, yes.

Speaker A:

I also have a very strong reaction to smell and texture.

Speaker B:

I would say as well.

Speaker A:

I am very empathetic addicts to picky eaters.

Speaker A:

I am Not.

Speaker A:

I wouldn't call myself a picky eater, but I certainly have, like, rules and things that I don't want to eat.

Speaker B:

And we all do, really.

Speaker A:

But yeah, yeah, I would say I'm quite vocal about mine.

Speaker A:

And I would say very rigid as well.

Speaker A:

Like, I will never try a Coke ever in my life.

Speaker A:

Pepsi disgusting to me.

Speaker A:

So I really do empathize with.

Speaker A:

Or yogurt with fruit at the bottom.

Speaker A:

Those are my two.

Speaker A:

And tuna.

Speaker A:

Those are actually my.

Speaker A:

And so I am empathetic to picky eaters.

Speaker A:

I really do appreciate that there's like, texture, smell.

Speaker B:

Smell.

Speaker A:

Or visual aversions, rigidity around brands or presentation or preparation.

Speaker A:

So I've had kids that will only eat their toast if it's cut into the exact four pieces that it always is, for example.

Speaker A:

And then same with their preparation.

Speaker A:

I have.

Speaker A:

Or I think it is Mercedes from Autism out loud.

Speaker A:

I saw on her Instagram, I think that if her mom makes the cake, then it's fine.

Speaker A:

If she makes the cake, there's something that's just, like, different.

Speaker A:

And her daughter knows.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

And she's tried, like, 10 times making.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And, like, tried to make it with her mom.

Speaker B:

I've seen that how.

Speaker B:

And that really, like, shows the.

Speaker B:

The hardship that that mom goes through.

Speaker B:

Like, really trying to make.

Speaker B:

Like, I'm trying to make this safe food or I'm trying to make this, like, new food that you like here.

Speaker A:

But won't eat here.

Speaker B:

And, like, how challenging that must be.

Speaker B:

And so, like, along with these sort of red flags or things to look out for, we're looking for that.

Speaker B:

Like, is there this, like, extreme rigidity, like, if I make the cake or you make the cake or whatever, and we're using the same stuff or like that.

Speaker B:

That sensory distress, really, that they're going through, and that's when it kind of turns into these, like, growth concerns or nutritional concerns.

Speaker B:

When we sort of recruited feedback for this podcast, we found a lot of families were saying, like, I'm really worried because either they're like, they're not gaining weight, and I'm really worried about, like, they're not getting enough nutrition from a variety of categories because of this restriction.

Speaker B:

And that's when we start to get worried.

Speaker B:

And then, of course, it's stressful on the family.

Speaker A:

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A:

And so today is not about that.

Speaker A:

Today is I hope to let.

Speaker A:

And this is something I.

Speaker A:

Where me and my husband right now are butting heads is, like, my job as a parent is to prepare the food.

Speaker A:

Your job is to eat it And I have to be okay with that at some point, you know, and I can't just keep pushing an agenda.

Speaker A:

And so that's where I think that the Instagram advice is helpful, but missing sort of some of that context and nuance.

Speaker A:

And so that's where I really wanted to dive into those things today.

Speaker A:

So that hopefully parents are leaving here like breathing a sigh of relief, like, oh, okay, maybe Jenner doesn't have to be a battle anymore.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And then like common with Instagram advice, it tends to sort of treat everything as if they're like the same problem and then we get the same solution.

Speaker B:

And so we want to like, look at things from a different angle to see, like, okay, maybe this is a solution for this problem and this is for this problem, but not like all just come down to the same sort of thing.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

Well intentioned advice.

Speaker A:

It's not coming out of nowhere.

Speaker A:

And that's where, again, I get really excited about some of the advice is it's rooted in really strong behavioral principles, exposure based learning and child development research.

Speaker A:

But every child is so unique that of course, one sentence of advice can't work for everyone or can't work in every situation.

Speaker B:

And then in those mealtime stressors, like, of course you're stressed and your child's not eating, or your husband or whoever is there and is like, you gotta finish your plate or like whatever they're saying, it just doesn't fit, then that's where of course, then it's not as easy to apply the strategies in that moment because it's just stressful.

Speaker B:

Right?

Speaker A:

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A:

And so that's the gap that we're hoping to focus on today.

Speaker A:

Not whether the advice is right or wrong, but what assumptions it's making.

Speaker A:

And then what you can do in those moments when the assumptions don't match what's in front of you or aren't matching.

Speaker A:

Sort of.

Speaker A:

You're saying, I'm doing this all the time and my dinners are still a battle every time.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Like there's more to the advice to unpack.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

So we'll walk through some of those most common sort of Instagram, I'm using air quotes here that you can't see.

Speaker B:

Feeding strategies.

Speaker B:

And then we'll break down the logic behind them from a behavioral lens.

Speaker B:

If there's any speech input, I'll put in as well.

Speaker B:

And then talk about what when they're helpful versus when they might not be enough on their own.

Speaker A:

And then next episode, we'll dive into true selective eating, where behavior is More rigid, it's more driven by its function, or like some operant learning contingencies.

Speaker A:

There's definitely more complexity there.

Speaker A:

And so that's where we'll bring in some more structured evidence, informed approaches, and that collaborative interaction really comes into play with these more complex selective eaters.

Speaker B:

So today's episode is really like a foundation, and then the next one will look at what we actually do when things get more complex.

Speaker B:

Like we said, like, rather than sort of beyond that.

Speaker B:

Typical picky eating.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And so what we've sort of been saying leading up to this is that none of the strategies are necessarily wrong, but they're not universally right either.

Speaker A:

Behavior is contextual, meaning it depends on, like, what's going on in the environment, what happened before this, what's happening after this, what happened three hours ago.

Speaker A:

There's a lot of other factors that we want to consider.

Speaker A:

And so what works is going to depend on patterns over time.

Speaker A:

And not this single moment at the table where I'm saying, here's your dessert with your dinner and solving all of my eating problems.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And we're not making a decision based on just like, one dinner either.

Speaker B:

Like you said, we're, like, looking at those patterns over time, which is, I mean, true to most things that we talk about, like, we're looking at patterns over time.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And that's where me and my husband end up battling.

Speaker A:

Often is like one meal a week or something where my son's being picky and says he's done and.

Speaker A:

And he's eaten two bites.

Speaker A:

I don't want to change our strategy or I don't think that we should respond any differently than we did the night before, because it's not a pattern.

Speaker A:

And so what I want to do is wait until we have a pattern and I can see some of those contextual factors that are contributing to this problem at my house, and then come up with a more thoughtful plan instead of an in the moment sort of reaction to his behavior.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

All right.

Speaker A:

So the first one is, if they say they're done, respect it.

Speaker A:

And you've sort of already alluded to using this strategy at home, is saying, like, is your belly full?

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

And so the Instagram version of this sort of truth, like, if they say they're done, respect it.

Speaker B:

Instagram sort of says, like, trust your child.

Speaker B:

They know when they're full.

Speaker B:

And so, you know, it's well intended because it does support that interoception that, like, you know, trusting your own feelings of fullness.

Speaker B:

It meant to reduce that pressure and like, sort of build some autonomy as well.

Speaker B:

So, like, giving the, the child the opportunity to say, like, hey, I'm full, because I don't know about you, but I grew up in a household where it was like, finish plate or we're not leaving.

Speaker B:

And I remember being very stressed about that.

Speaker B:

So it's like trying to change that.

Speaker A:

Narrative, but because if you force people to overeat, then they have weight problems later in life and we all, they don't learn, like you said, to listen to their body.

Speaker A:

And so what we want to think about here is teaching that, like, the bigger picture skill.

Speaker A:

And I think that's again, where the Instagram advice sometimes is missed.

Speaker A:

And then certainly with my husband in those stressful moments, he's forgetting, like, this big picture goal.

Speaker A:

The big picture goal is that I want to teach you to eat and I want to teach you to stop eating when your belly is full and not be an overeater.

Speaker A:

Right, Right.

Speaker A:

And so that's really where I think the research comes in to support this as a really great strategy.

Speaker A:

Trust them.

Speaker A:

And I, I think that's what we want to do as parents.

Speaker A:

And then if that happens once a week, then fine.

Speaker A:

You know, like, my son didn't eat dinner yesterday.

Speaker A:

He had, I think two bites of bow tie pasta and said his bag belly was full and then he went to bed and like, I didn't hear from him, you know, and he's fine.

Speaker A:

I'm not worried about his weight because it's a one off event.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Versus, like something that's happening over and over and over again.

Speaker B:

I was thinking about overeating, and I'm definitely an overeater.

Speaker B:

But like I said, I was also raised where you're like, you finish your plate and that's not an option.

Speaker B:

And I remember one of the very first times you and I went out for dinner with our husbands, like early days, and I, we both, like, had steak.

Speaker B:

I remember because it's like something I never eat in my house because my house is mostly vegetarian.

Speaker B:

So I was eating my steak and I, I remember you, like, didn't finish, like, and we like, didn't eat a huge steak.

Speaker B:

It was like the smaller, you know, versions.

Speaker B:

And I remember you, like, took half.

Speaker A:

Your steak home and I was like, I would just never do that.

Speaker B:

Like, I'm just like eating my steak.

Speaker B:

Like, I'm here and I am so full, but I'm probably gonna finish it.

Speaker B:

And that's like a pattern that I've learned from very, very little that you just like Finish it.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

Which is not healthy either.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And I hate that feeling of being too full.

Speaker A:

So I'm almost never too full unless it's like, like McDonald's is my guilty pleasure.

Speaker A:

And then I get like very, very full.

Speaker A:

But I also have a digest.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

That makes being very full very uncomfortable.

Speaker A:

And so I changed my eating habits a lot when I was in my mid-20s because of that interoception feeling.

Speaker A:

I didn't like it anymore.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so again, it's like, interesting to see how we respond as adults as well as you are eating.

Speaker A:

And I think if you get curious about your own eating as parents too, and start thinking about the decisions you make, it is interesting to then compare to the decisions our kids are making for sure.

Speaker B:

And then like our personal history with.

Speaker B:

With how we were raised with eating shapes.

Speaker B:

We either want to.

Speaker B:

We're like doing the same thing because it just feels automatic, or we want to shift completely.

Speaker B:

And then, you know, like, sometimes there's a balance in the middle.

Speaker B:

Anyways, I just wanted to share that feeling, you know, so we're talking about this, like, is your belly full?

Speaker B:

Business.

Speaker B:

And I'm not good at it myself.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

As an adult.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And that's where as parents, it's important to us that our kids do have those skills.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And then back to this idea of like a pattern.

Speaker A:

So if it happens once a week, week, like, that's fine with me.

Speaker A:

Even twice a week, you know, that's fine with me.

Speaker A:

What I'm worried about is that if I don't trust their bo bellies being full and they're telling me my belly is full and I don't want them to be full for whatever reason.

Speaker A:

I'm now creating some sort of power struggle potentially.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Where I'm like, no, no, you gotta eat.

Speaker A:

And then if they don't eat, what am I gonna do now?

Speaker A:

Like you said, I'm stuck at the table with them.

Speaker A:

I've now made eating aversive.

Speaker A:

I've now made myself punishing.

Speaker A:

I've now made the dinner not fun for my whole family.

Speaker A:

And is that really what I want?

Speaker A:

Especially in our case, like, and I think many parent families cases, I didn't see them all day.

Speaker A:

I really only get three hours with them at the end of the day.

Speaker A:

I don't want it to be spent arguing about you eating one more bite of pasta.

Speaker B:

True.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And so a single event, we're looking at, like, preference.

Speaker A:

If we see a pattern, then we might think maybe they're avoiding dinner for some Reason or there's some sort of like learned contingency.

Speaker A:

So like in my 3 year old's case, right now he wants to be done food.

Speaker A:

I think there's a lot of different factors at play, I would say, which I do think probably comes up later in the episode.

Speaker A:

But he eats right before he comes home.

Speaker A:

Like our daycare provider is supposed to feed him a snack earlier and I think the day just gets away from them.

Speaker A:

And so at 4 o' clock he's having like a nutritious snack.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so when I serve dinner at 5:15, he's like actually legitimately not hungry.

Speaker A:

Right, right.

Speaker A:

And so sometimes that's a factor that I would want to consider here.

Speaker A:

And so like trust his body and I don't want make a power struggle and force him to eat when he truly is not hungry.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

But then the other thing is I think sometimes he wants to go play.

Speaker B:

I was going to say always.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And kids when they're this age too, have a hard time just like sitting at a table for an hour, like, or you know, for any period of time.

Speaker A:

I think the research suggests, like their age is how long you can.

Speaker A:

I expect them to sit at the table.

Speaker A:

So like three minutes for my son.

Speaker A:

And he certainly sits for way longer than three minutes.

Speaker A:

But like potentially that could.

Speaker B:

So that's.

Speaker A:

Those are some of the things I might think of.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

If dinner's not going well, he's often asking to leave.

Speaker A:

I'm gonna look at my dinner routine.

Speaker A:

What can I do to make this better?

Speaker A:

But you wanna stay in the dinner routine and not get out.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And for.

Speaker B:

If I got three minutes for.

Speaker B:

So what we're saying about the age there is like, if he's three years old, then we would expect that three minutes at a table would be like sort of developmentally appropriate for him to stay for that period of time.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And so if he says to me, my belly's full, I don't think his belly's full.

Speaker A:

In my mind as a mom, I really want him to eat.

Speaker A:

But my response every other day has been, okay, thanks for telling me, no problem.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

I'm not going to change that response because that's what's consistent to him.

Speaker A:

That's what I trained him and taught him to do was tell me when you're full and I believe you.

Speaker B:

Okay.

Speaker A:

But then what I am going to do is take a step back and look at what I'm doing around dinner time.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And think of, is he already full because he ate at daycare?

Speaker A:

For example.

Speaker A:

Right, right.

Speaker A:

And so now try and do is I lessen what's on his plate knowing that he's already eaten.

Speaker A:

Really like he might only like last night I think he had two potatoes on his plate.

Speaker A:

So we don't serve him as much food as the rest of the family.

Speaker A:

And then we have also like changed up what we're doing at the dinner table.

Speaker A:

So usually my other son leads the activity and we play Two Truths and a lie.

Speaker A:

My three year old can't really play that game.

Speaker A:

Not that fun for him.

Speaker A:

And so we've changed things up so we're doing a dinner, different activity and that way the conversation keeps going and then he's less likely to be like, I gotta go.

Speaker B:

Yeah, more fun over in the living room.

Speaker B:

I gotta stay here with you guys.

Speaker B:

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Speaker B:

So we both use that sort of like tell me when your belly's fuller, is your belly full thing.

Speaker B:

But we want to think about using it like consistently and trust, like having that trusting relationship with them.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And if I think they're overusing it, I'm keeping my response consistent and I'm looking at some of those other factors around dinner that I can play around with and see if I can impact the behavior.

Speaker A:

And then the final thing I've added in now for my 3 year old and I don't always run this way, is that if his belly is full, then there's no other food available.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Yeah, we'll do that too.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And so sometimes I haven't done that.

Speaker A:

Like if they've eaten even like a good, like, you know, if things are going well, then sure.

Speaker A:

Like an hour after dinner, if you're hungry, you can grab something else to eat.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

In his case, right now, now we're representing his dinner.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

If he's hungry an hour later.

Speaker A:

Because again, I think the motivation in his case is that snacks are way better than what I'm serving you for dinner.

Speaker A:

But dinner is really what's nutritious.

Speaker A:

And so my job as a parent, I think is to make sure that we're eating well balanced, you know, that I, we certainly don't eat super healthy, but that my kids are eating a well balanced throughout the day.

Speaker A:

And so that's a boundary that I've put in just lately because it is a habit that he'll say I'm all done and that.

Speaker A:

And then.

Speaker A:

Yep.

Speaker A:

In his case, five minutes later, he's in the snack.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And it's a bear paw every time.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

What's the nutritional value There really?

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

It's a banana on the package.

Speaker B:

But there's no banana.

Speaker B:

No.

Speaker A:

And like I don't blame you.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Especially like I find with my 5 year old I can get a lot more buy in for eating because I can talk about how it fuels his body and that sort of thing.

Speaker A:

My three year old, he likes muscles a little bit and I can kind of say like, let's check out your muscles.

Speaker A:

This will feed them like that sort of thing.

Speaker A:

But he's not as into it as my five and a half year.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Is very into the protein on his plate and what's gonna help make him strong and feed his brain and that sort of thing.

Speaker B:

And the fastest runner.

Speaker A:

Because that's important, Tim.

Speaker A:

It is, yes.

Speaker A:

Like a cheetah.

Speaker A:

As a side anecdote, we did an episode on sleep recently.

Speaker A:

I was talking to him about sleep because as you know, he does not like to go to sleep.

Speaker A:

And I told him that for his age, like he needs 11 to 12 hours of sleep.

Speaker A:

And every day when he wakes up in the morning, how much sleep did I get, mom?

Speaker A:

Did I get 11 or 12 hours?

Speaker A:

My brain feel like I got 11 hours of sleep.

Speaker A:

And so when we put him to bed, we're like, well if you go to bed right now, yeah, you could get your full 11 hours in.

Speaker A:

And he's so committed to it, it's amazing.

Speaker A:

So if any parents are struggling and you have a kid that likes like practical things and it's like sort of rule driven, it was a good sort of mini strategy.

Speaker B:

That's so sweet.

Speaker B:

I love that.

Speaker B:

And I'll tell my girls something similar about that with food.

Speaker B:

Like we gotta eat five vegetables or fruits a day and like it's important and sometimes you want to eat, eat like the cool stuff on the plate.

Speaker B:

And I'll tell them my own personal strategy.

Speaker B:

And you, I know we both do this.

Speaker B:

Like I was laughing.

Speaker B:

I made a video for this episode about eating cucumbers and like both of us will just like eat cucumbers in mid morning.

Speaker B:

Just like get those veggies in, you know, and it's like, would I rather eat the Cadbury that's on my desk or would I rather eat like something else?

Speaker B:

Probably.

Speaker B:

And so I'll tell them that too.

Speaker B:

Like I put a couple veggies in your lunchbox.

Speaker B:

Like try to, if, if I were you, I would just like get one of those veggies out of the way before you eat something else else and then it's done for sure.

Speaker A:

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A:

And like I tie it into, like, pooping, too.

Speaker A:

Like, my son does not want to have, like, a hurtful poop.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so I'll just be like, you know, if we got to eat the veggies too, or else, you know, you get backed up and that is not fun.

Speaker B:

Spiky poops.

Speaker A:

That's what he called.

Speaker A:

Yes, it is.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

He just had one yesterday.

Speaker A:

So much overshare for the podcast.

Speaker A:

Yeah, sorry.

Speaker B:

But you, if you're a parent, you've been through this stuff.

Speaker B:

And so we try to be, like, very real and transparent and honest and what we're going through.

Speaker B:

And so before we turn over to the next one, I wanted to talk about how much food is on the plate.

Speaker B:

You mentioned it briefly, but I found that was happening in our house too, where my husband was giving them, like an adult sized portion on their plate.

Speaker B:

And, like, he does it very sweet.

Speaker B:

Like, he makes them like a little rice.

Speaker B:

What do you call that?

Speaker B:

Like a.

Speaker B:

A rice section.

Speaker B:

And then he does this section, you know, And I was like, dude, like, they're gonna eat like nothing on that plate.

Speaker B:

Like, and so giving them really, like, child sized portions is helpful because then it's also daunting, like, feeling like, oh, there's no way I can possibly eat all.

Speaker B:

And so I'll be like, okay, let's just put a couple things on and sure.

Speaker B:

If you want to go back for seconds.

Speaker B:

Great.

Speaker A:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

I think that's a really good way to, like a very low hanging strategy that you could try to change around dinner times and get rid of sort of that I'm all done right away behavior.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And the next one that I think hits, certainly my boomer parents is offering dessert with dinner.

Speaker A:

And truthfully, me as a behavior analyst as well, when I first saw this was like twitching.

Speaker A:

And I was say, I still have.

Speaker A:

I definitely have, like, some clinical thoughts around it.

Speaker A:

But the idea, again, it comes back to when we were kids.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And like, these desserts become this coveted thing.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

This, like, thing that you can only have if.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And so the idea is to get.

Speaker B:

Rid of that and became like, bribes really too.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

Like, if you eat the rest of the pork chop or whatever it was going growing up, then you get the apple.

Speaker B:

And it would be like a good dessert too.

Speaker B:

Like a piece of apple pie or like, you know, like lots of yummy stuff.

Speaker B:

And so the Instagram advice now is like to normalize dessert, serve it with your dinner.

Speaker A:

So it's.

Speaker A:

And my husband will never allow we.

Speaker A:

I do it if I'm the one that's serving dinner.

Speaker A:

My husband will never.

Speaker A:

It doesn't matter how.

Speaker A:

I could show him all the research in the world that this is a great strategy.

Speaker A:

Would never put their dessert with their dinner.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

And then especially because they're going to go for it first.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And that's what would drive him nuts.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

It would not drive me nuts and I'll tell you why.

Speaker A:

Because of some thoughtful ways that I would do it.

Speaker A:

But the idea being removes this food hierarchy.

Speaker A:

Some foods are better than others and I don't know that that like there is certainly some benefit to that.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

It is like some as humans, we want what we can't have.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so that's sort of this idea with like sugary drinks.

Speaker A:

If your parents ever limited your access to pop or like if you never got McDonald's.

Speaker A:

McDonald's is this like coveted thing that you want to do.

Speaker A:

So it removes some of that.

Speaker A:

But like we were talking about, I think it's also important that we teach kids about nutrition.

Speaker B:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker A:

And so removing this hierarchy.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

But there's like sometimes foods or foods that we eat a little bit of and foods that we eat a lot of or like, you know, just like different ways we can frame things.

Speaker A:

That obsession with sweets.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

I feel like I've tried these strategies and a lot of these things and my kids still would prefer sweets over anything else.

Speaker A:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

They're not obsessed, I guess.

Speaker A:

But my kid would take the candy candy store every day.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

But I think it works too.

Speaker B:

When they're eating repertoire is already flexible.

Speaker B:

Like we're not like.

Speaker B:

Yeah, I don't know how to expand that now.

Speaker B:

But yeah, like their eating repertoire does have to be flexible.

Speaker B:

So I know I tried this when my youngest was quite little and she was like very happy to go from eating rice to then eating her chocolate chip muffin or whatever.

Speaker B:

I was like, that does not appeal to me at all.

Speaker B:

But she was very happy bouncing and I was, it was interesting because I was like, okay, she does have like a very good eating rep.

Speaker B:

Repertoire and she's fine like balancing back between these two things.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker B:

And it wasn't just like, like going right for the muffin, eating that and then nothing else.

Speaker A:

And my 5 year old does that.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

I would say now like he'll.

Speaker A:

If we like I.

Speaker A:

They had cupcakes with dinner the other night because someone gave them to them at the end of Taekwondo.

Speaker A:

And so I just put it on their plate with their dinner and he said, I'M gonna save this till the end.

Speaker A:

My 3 year old ate it right away, of course.

Speaker A:

And that's fine.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

As long as we're sitting down and having dinner together, teaching this idea that, like, all foods have a place in our diet.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so anyways, that's where the, the advice comes from.

Speaker A:

Well, meaning advice, but I can certainly see.

Speaker A:

Let's say you were always serving your dinner and dessert together.

Speaker A:

The child's eating the cupcake and then their belly's full.

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

And that's where your problem, like, I think again, you could end up in a problem.

Speaker B:

Yep, I agreed.

Speaker B:

Especially something filling like a big cupcake.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker B:

That's like really, like got a lot of carbs in it.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

I'm talking about one little M and M here.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And so if your kids are in a phase where they're not really eating dinner and then we're serving dessert with dinner, I think you might, it might be tricky to unpack the not eating dinner.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

But you could use that strategy of like a small amount of dessert for sure.

Speaker A:

And keep serving it with dinner if that was something that felt important to you.

Speaker A:

And then what I'm finding again right now, my son ate three bites of bow tie Pass yesterday.

Speaker A:

And I was like, I'm ready for candy.

Speaker A:

And then my husband's response is like, you need to eat your dinner.

Speaker A:

And he's mad.

Speaker A:

And then they're fighting back and forth about this candy and stuff.

Speaker A:

I'm like, you just tell them once you said your belly's full.

Speaker A:

So your belly's full if it's still hungry, your pasta is still available to you.

Speaker A:

And we're done talking about this.

Speaker A:

And it's not like something I'm talking about for the next 15 minutes.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

Back and forth on the candy train.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

Um, and so what we might see in this case is like, if they're not eating anything else, Right.

Speaker A:

They're just eating the dessert.

Speaker A:

Then I'm in a pickle here.

Speaker A:

What, what am I gonna do?

Speaker A:

Uh, dessert has now become the only thing that they're eating at dinner.

Speaker A:

The rest of my food is not getting eaten.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Um, and then the avoidance is building up because they're getting enough food.

Speaker A:

Probably like you said, like, with a big cupcake, that's enough food for my.

Speaker A:

I certainly.

Speaker A:

My 3 year old could go to bed on a cupcake and with that late snack from daycare.

Speaker A:

And so then I'm like reinforcing this.

Speaker A:

And then he's telling me his belly's full.

Speaker A:

I'm saying, okay, no problem.

Speaker A:

You're telling me your belly's full, and then he's going to bed every night only eating a cupcake and never touching the rest of his dinner.

Speaker A:

And I'm reinforcing that behavior.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

So what can we do?

Speaker A:

And I think there's like lots of different strategies in my house.

Speaker A:

Like, we actually don't eat a lot of dessert.

Speaker A:

Like, I almost never served dessert after dinner.

Speaker A:

Maybe before bed, they might have something.

Speaker A:

But we're not a family.

Speaker A:

Like, if my mom comes over, she's always dinner, then dessert, dinner, and then we'll have ice cream or something like that.

Speaker A:

I would never eat that way otherwise.

Speaker A:

Mostly because again, I'm full after dinner.

Speaker A:

I don't need any dessert.

Speaker A:

And so I don't really think to offer them anything.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

In my house, it's like dinner and then maybe a little bit later it's like yogurt or something.

Speaker B:

But it's not like a big ice cream or something really sweet like pie or cake like I would have had growing up too.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And so like they're just like not really used to that, even as a contingency.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And then where I'm not ever presenting things as like, first eat your dinner and then there's candy for you.

Speaker A:

Not using those words really, so that they don't learn that that's like even an option for our family.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so sometimes I find like a planned dessert after the meal routine can be a good strategy.

Speaker A:

So again, as the grown up, it's my my job to choose what you're eating.

Speaker A:

And so we always have to dessert at before bed, for example, like we always eat at 5 and then we have dessert at 7.

Speaker A:

And no matter, it's not contingent on what you ate for dinner would be the way that I would like keep the gist of this idea of serving dessert with dinner while breaking the cycle of them only eating the dessert and not having dinner is the two are not contingent on each other.

Speaker A:

They're separate events.

Speaker A:

And I'm going to deal with the non eating of the dinner separately, but by changing up some of my behaviors at mealtime, the way I'm presenting food to you and that sort of thing.

Speaker A:

And then the dessert is gonna come kind of no matter what.

Speaker A:

I might serve you a small amount of dessert though, like that.

Speaker A:

Again, as a parent, that's something I might think about is like, okay, if you're not eating a lot, I probably don't need you to fill up on a whole cupcake.

Speaker A:

And as a family, we will share cupcakes too.

Speaker B:

Right, Right.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And what you're saying is this contingency means, like, it's not dependent on whether you ate dinner or not, whether you get that next thing.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

It's about like, hey, this is just what we're doing.

Speaker B:

This is part of our plan.

Speaker A:

Can.

Speaker B:

And it's not.

Speaker B:

I'm not also using the words like, well, you can only have this cupcake if you ate dinner, or like, your brother ate it, so he can have.

Speaker A:

It, but you can't because you did it.

Speaker B:

And that's like, what we're not doing.

Speaker A:

No.

Speaker A:

And no shame.

Speaker B:

Right, Right.

Speaker A:

Because again, once you start this shame cycle, then that's where you're.

Speaker A:

You've become a punisher to them.

Speaker A:

Eating becomes punishing.

Speaker A:

Like, I'm just not feeding and I'm feeding bad into this problem that I already have.

Speaker A:

Whereas I need to feed the problem good stuff and good strategies, not more pressure and more stress.

Speaker B:

Right, Right.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

The next one I was gonna chat about is that I've seen Don't make separate meals.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

All the time.

Speaker A:

You've seen this one.

Speaker B:

And the Instagram version of that is, like, one meal.

Speaker B:

That's it.

Speaker A:

Right, Exactly.

Speaker A:

And I think that, again, harder than it sounds.

Speaker A:

You know, it's like, if my kid is refusing food every time I serve it, what am I gonna do as a parent?

Speaker A:

And I think as a parent, sleep.

Speaker A:

Sleep and eating, especially with young children, are, like, the most stressful things.

Speaker A:

They're like, this is what I have to do for you.

Speaker A:

And so it gets tricky.

Speaker A:

If they're not eating anything and you just keep serving dinner, that doesn't feel like the right solution either.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And that's where this piece of advice sort of loses the nuance.

Speaker A:

What.

Speaker A:

What the advice means is, like, if you're always serving them something different, then they learn that something different is just available.

Speaker A:

So why eat the first thing that's presented to me?

Speaker A:

Because you'll probably give me something.

Speaker A:

Something else.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And that's where, like, the.

Speaker A:

Again, the advice is, well, meaning, preventing that refusal promotes exposure to a variety of foods as well by not making those separate meals.

Speaker A:

And then, of course, for a family, keeps things easier.

Speaker A:

Like, I cannot imagine making two meals.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Life is busy enough, and we only have so much time to get all these things in.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

And so, yeah, in our house, we'll, like, serve what's being served for dinner.

Speaker B:

But then I'll always make sure there's, like, something on my kids plate that I think they're gonna eat and that's how I handle it.

Speaker B:

So it's like maybe we're having curry with rice, which sometimes is their favorite thing and sometimes isn't.

Speaker B:

But then I'll put like some sliced apples on the side and then I'll put maybe some like they love like frozen peas.

Speaker B:

So that's like such an easy way for me to add some veggies to their plate.

Speaker B:

And so like.

Speaker B:

Cool.

Speaker B:

I'm just adding in something else that I know you're gonna like.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

That's what I call building the plate strategically because.

Speaker A:

And sort of like we talked about with that first tip as well is like maybe with the curry and rice, I'm going to give them a little bit of curry and a little bit of rice and then I'm going to fill their plate with some of these other foods that I know are nutritious and that they like.

Speaker A:

And so some of the things that we might consider here is like their nutritional needs, of course, is like you don't want them not eating for several days because you're not making separate meals.

Speaker A:

We might think about structure and the consistency at which we're doing this.

Speaker A:

So like if only once a week, week I'm serving maybe a family meal and the rest of the week I'm doing modified meals for whatever reason.

Speaker A:

Like if you're a family on the go, I've got to imagine.

Speaker A:

And I've done been.

Speaker A:

I've done this as well on nights where we've had like early swimming.

Speaker A:

My kids favorite dinner is like a yogurt parfait.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And on a busy week, you know, it's easy to lean on that and be like, I don't know, I feel pretty good here.

Speaker A:

Like you got enough stuff, good protein, whatever.

Speaker A:

And.

Speaker A:

But if I make that the regular thing and then we're only really sitting down for that family meal once a week, then that becomes really tricky because the rest of the time they actually are getting their like highly preferred food.

Speaker A:

And then we want to think about these safe foods and their participation in eating and the fact that they feel open to eating.

Speaker A:

If I put the pleat down and it's full of curry, then their brain has already said, I'm not eating this.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And we haven't even started dinner yet.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And now I've got to sit through 20 minutes of us arguing about whether you're going to eat this.

Speaker A:

So.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so I look at it and it sounds like you as well as like exposure to this is what our family eats.

Speaker A:

And then also providing nourishment through some of these, like you said, peas.

Speaker A:

My kids like peppers and cucumbers.

Speaker A:

And I try to rotate that up, what I'm serving them.

Speaker A:

And then also be thoughtful, you know, what are we having for dinner and how much do they really like it?

Speaker A:

Does it have really strong flavors, those types of things?

Speaker B:

And sometimes I'll separate it out.

Speaker B:

Like for my meal, I might like put my rice down and then my curry on top.

Speaker B:

And I like it that way, like all mixed in.

Speaker B:

But for them, I'll keep it separate.

Speaker B:

So, like, I know my one daughter, like actually loves putting soy sauce, a little bit of soy sauce on her rice.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

And I know that if I put the rice separately, it does not go well with curry.

Speaker B:

So I would never do that to my own.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

But she loves it.

Speaker A:

And I'm like, hey, cool.

Speaker B:

This actually, like tastes good when I put the rice with my chickpea or something like that.

Speaker B:

And I'll see what I'm enjoying.

Speaker B:

But I'm not like forcing her to mix everything all together.

Speaker A:

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A:

So by doing this, we're like reducing, like I said, that sort of initial response.

Speaker A:

So that overwhelm right from the first time that see the plate, oh, God, I got to eat this.

Speaker B:

No, thanks.

Speaker A:

Maintaining that idea of exposure.

Speaker A:

We haven't talked about this yet, but the research really saying, like we need 15 plus exposures.

Speaker A:

Exposures meaning I actually put it in my mouth and swallow it.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

So we need 15 plus of those to like something new.

Speaker A:

And that I also found is a really supportive stat.

Speaker A:

As a parent, I keep that in the back of my mind when we're having dinner time battles is those 15 plus exposures to really like something.

Speaker A:

And then for kids, their taste buds actually change quite quickly.

Speaker A:

And so maintaining that exposure is really important.

Speaker A:

And then supporting this regulation at the table so that dinner remains this fun thing that our family does together.

Speaker B:

Right, right.

Speaker B:

And then having like a couple of those things that they will eat on the plate.

Speaker B:

I worked with a family a long time ago, and at mealtime they would actually have a little paper sitting beside them.

Speaker B:

And then they had like 1 to 15.

Speaker B:

I don't know if I've ever told you this.

Speaker B:

1 To 15 down the side and it'd be like black beans would be written at the top.

Speaker B:

And then they were very, very thoughtful, very like cool parents.

Speaker B:

And so then it would be like black beans at the top and then 1 to 15.

Speaker B:

And so every time the girl tried black beans, they she would write like a smiley face or a sad face.

Speaker B:

And it was like, very neutral.

Speaker B:

They were just like, hey, let's try.

Speaker A:

This black bean today.

Speaker B:

And then she'd very.

Speaker B:

She was like, very willing and not a selective eater at all.

Speaker B:

But she would, like, try the black bean.

Speaker B:

And then she'd be like, today, I liked it.

Speaker B:

Put a smiley face.

Speaker B:

And then they would like, hey, notice how over time, it's like, very cool.

Speaker B:

And thinking about the data behind it.

Speaker A:

And then again, behaviorally, lots of great strategies in there.

Speaker A:

Like, the child's involved in it.

Speaker A:

They're in control of it.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

It's not pressure to like something.

Speaker B:

Just try it again.

Speaker A:

It tastes delicious.

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

Whatever your opinion is of it is fine.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

I will write that down.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And then actually was the kid who was like, making the smiley face was very interesting.

Speaker B:

And at the time, I think that girl was five or six.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

So, like, able to have those conversations and do the motor and seems like an interesting strategy, but keeps the exposure.

Speaker A:

And then builds up that, like, autonomy and the.

Speaker A:

Takes off the pressure.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Those new foods.

Speaker A:

So some really good strategies in place there.

Speaker B:

And telling the child that you do, like, it's okay to try things more than once to determine whether you like it or not.

Speaker B:

Like, knowing that, hey, I might need to try this, like 15 times to know if I'm gonna like it or not.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Rather than just that one first time and then never again.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And I. I certainly use that with my kids, the science behind it.

Speaker A:

And I think that kids respond really well to those rationales instead of just like, you gotta bite it.

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

So what we suggest here is don't make separate food when possible.

Speaker A:

I try to follow like an:

Speaker A:

Believe to be the best.

Speaker A:

And 20% of the time, we're just like, trying to survive.

Speaker A:

Including some safe foods on the plate that you're happy with as a parent for them to eat.

Speaker A:

Adding the.

Speaker A:

A small portion of the food that your family's eating, if that's not something that's currently in their repertoire, letting them choose.

Speaker A:

So sometimes even doing, like, the family style and they can serve on their own plate.

Speaker A:

One thing that they'll recommend in the research is limiting that grazing.

Speaker A:

So between meal eating.

Speaker A:

Um, and then I also like this one where you're serving foods at hungry times.

Speaker A:

With my oldest, he got, like, had cut a lot of veggies out and wasn't really eating many and so what I started doing them was serving them at breakfast and then he ate them.

Speaker A:

And then we were able to kind of shift back into not having those.

Speaker A:

Like we don't eat those for breakfast anymore.

Speaker A:

Um, but that works really well.

Speaker A:

So serving that kind of my desired food for him at those times where he's hungry and then setting up something fun to do after mealtime.

Speaker A:

Because like I said, sometimes it can feel like a bit of a battle or it can feel like we're not agreeing here.

Speaker A:

And so by setting up these fun activities afterwards and it like reconnects us as a fan.

Speaker B:

I love that.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

The next one that I came across is they'll eat when they're hungry.

Speaker A:

And this is one I get a lot from families.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And it's well meaning advice.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Like the families that come into us all, like they're are probably selective eaters, but maybe just picky eaters.

Speaker A:

But a lot of the advice I heard is like they'll just eat when they're hungry.

Speaker B:

Right?

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

And if they're hungry, they will eat.

Speaker B:

So like you're like waiting for that.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

For them to be hungry.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And we've talked about why that isn't the case.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

That interoception could be different.

Speaker A:

But then also it could be that we're waiting like they're becoming malnourished.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

When I was looking in to some just feedback from parents again on this, I found like parents were genuinely worried, like what do I do?

Speaker B:

My child hasn't eaten in four days.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

You know, and they're like, well keep them hydrated.

Speaker B:

But then as a parent you're so stressed.

Speaker B:

And again, this is more way extreme than picky eating.

Speaker B:

But that's what parents are worried about.

Speaker B:

And so you can't always just like wait until they're hungry.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

It relies on that interoception ability.

Speaker B:

Right, Right.

Speaker A:

And if you don't have that or you're just like young, then there might be like a mismatch match.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And then like I was saying, like my son is the example where he's like eating at daycare.

Speaker B:

Yep.

Speaker A:

You know, he's like genuinely not hungry.

Speaker A:

And so I've got to like plan my meals around that too.

Speaker A:

And then similarly when we said like the grazing idea is like that's why they do recommend to not let them graze, is that then you're building up this motivation to be hungry.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so the advice is well intentioned and not necessarily wrong.

Speaker A:

But um, it could lead to some concerns if Your child maybe doesn't feel hunger.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Or even.

Speaker A:

Not even that they're not are just like unaware of the hunger sensation and maybe more focused on other things sometimes we'll see that with those kids with high focus or like big interest.

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

Um, and so here what we might do is still like we're going to follow our family structure, maybe serve those smaller portion sizes like you said, you can always get second.

Speaker A:

And then we're aiming for like a successful positive mealtime interaction.

Speaker A:

Not necessarily that they're clearing their plate.

Speaker A:

And so I'm shifting my expectations as the parent and sort of setting us up for success here and using the power of patterns and schedules.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

To really help feed that hunger.

Speaker A:

Cue.

Speaker A:

Okay, the just keep offering it.

Speaker A:

So that exposure thing, we did talk about those 15 plus exposures really well, well documented in the research.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

But what if you just keep offering it and they're not eating it?

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B:

And that's certainly happened for both of us.

Speaker B:

Like, we know that the research shows that that repeated exposure can increase the acceptance, but can be tricky.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

But I think we've talked about a lot of these strategies that we want to put in for that exposure is if you're doing some of these other things like not putting a lot of pressure on or serving smaller portions, modeling yourself, talking about the texture of it and what it tastes like and that sort of thing.

Speaker A:

We're building these no pressure ways that they could try the food that is ex.

Speaker A:

We're exposing them to something we tried.

Speaker B:

In my house around this was.

Speaker B:

I bought special tasting spoons and I call them tasting spoons for my kids.

Speaker B:

And they're just small spoons, like very.

Speaker B:

They're.

Speaker B:

I don't even know what they're meant for, but they're just a very tiny little spoon.

Speaker A:

And.

Speaker B:

And so I'll be like, hey, I'm going to try my tasting spoon because this is new and I'm not sure.

Speaker A:

Build the motivation.

Speaker B:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B:

And so then I'll use this like special spoon to try it.

Speaker B:

And then it's also not this like massive, daunting large size spoon.

Speaker B:

It's like a little one.

Speaker A:

And then we.

Speaker B:

I would model like getting curious about what I think, like, oh, that one's like tangier than I thought or like this is a little bit like sweeter than I thought it would be or something like that.

Speaker B:

Right?

Speaker A:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A:

So like building this idea where it's a positive experience to try things.

Speaker A:

Your girls in particular love mini things, small things, so feeds into their Already things that they're interested in and really sets the stage where, again, they're coming into this trying with an open mind, not a stress response that, like, oh, God, look at all this stuff on my plate.

Speaker B:

I gotta eat.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

You've changed up the environment for them.

Speaker A:

And this is, again, a really great example of picky versus selective eating.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

Is that they are picky, but they could try it when the contingency or the contextual factors are different.

Speaker A:

So when we're doing it with these fun spoons, then I can try new food.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And again, this idea that the exposure, at least for me, is not about.

Speaker A:

It's nice if it increases the number of foods that you eat or that you like.

Speaker A:

But what I want is you to be able to go and sit down at a restaurant at your friend's house and be able to eat dinner there and feel comfortable doing so.

Speaker B:

Right, right, exactly.

Speaker A:

What we want to avoid is those forced exposures and turning things into a battle.

Speaker A:

And that's where this.

Speaker A:

I think maybe my final Instagram advice, maybe not, is to just take one more bite.

Speaker A:

And this is where me and my husband are battling.

Speaker B:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker B:

So that's usually like that, okay, just take one more bite and then you can be free or whatever.

Speaker B:

And it becomes this like, power struggle battle.

Speaker A:

Right, exactly.

Speaker A:

And then if the child, like, genuinely has like, sensory sensitivity or like, for whatever reason, their own anxiety response around the food, like, you're just fueling that, that this is not safe.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And then in my house case, my son loves attention.

Speaker A:

He will do anything for attention, whether it's positive or negative.

Speaker A:

And so, like, for my husband to just.

Speaker A:

Just take a bite.

Speaker A:

Take one more bite.

Speaker A:

Come on, just take a bite.

Speaker B:

It's like, great for him.

Speaker B:

Perfect.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And then he'll just go.

Speaker A:

And then my husband loses his mind.

Speaker A:

It's really fun.

Speaker A:

What I always say to my husband is that one bite doesn't change anything.

Speaker A:

Even if he takes this one more bite.

Speaker A:

He doesn't like his belly.

Speaker A:

Sure, I guess has one more bite of food in it, you know, but it's not actually, like filling his belly up in the way that you think his belly needs to be filled.

Speaker A:

And then now you've just like, got us into this, like, terrible dinner time loop that I can't get out of.

Speaker A:

You've put a boundary.

Speaker A:

And now that he needs to take one more bite, what are you gonna do?

Speaker A:

Yeah, at some point, are you gonna let him go?

Speaker A:

Cuz you didn't take the one.

Speaker A:

I don't know what your plan is and, and I don't want to help figure out that plan.

Speaker A:

That's where it gets so frustrating.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And then it becomes, it's frustrating for the whole family.

Speaker B:

And then like parents are getting upset and the kids getting upset and just like makes meal time very aversive.

Speaker A:

Yes, I did want to talk a little bit about, because this is actually old school.

Speaker A:

ABA feeding therapy is called Escape Extinction.

Speaker A:

I have run it in my early days and it didn't feel great, but that was what we were supposed to do.

Speaker A:

And there's feeding clinics that were created with this mentality in mind, I'm sure still exist.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

And this was for selective eaters and we would just sit there with a spoon in front of their face until they bit it.

Speaker B:

I, I've seen this in aba and I again was probably like almost a decade ago and I was like, I don't like this.

Speaker B:

This is where I feel like we really don't align in terms of like our different disciplines.

Speaker B:

And I remember thinking like okay, I'm like way not involved.

Speaker B:

I don't want to be involved here at all.

Speaker A:

But there was no other reason research at the time.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

There's not like there was any other approaches.

Speaker A:

And these kids were dying like they weren't eating, they're malnourished, there's no strategies.

Speaker A:

Whereas now I think we've got more of this holistic view of people in general in social and other sciences where we're really looking at the developmental processes at play a lot more than we were in the past.

Speaker A:

And at the time, again that's where those feeding clinics came from is like there would be kids that like were like legitimately like so thin cuz they wouldn't eat anything or so overweight because they would only eat McDonald's cheeseburgers.

Speaker A:

And the family's going out every three times a day to buy food for that kid.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And that's where these came from.

Speaker A:

And anyways, so we, I ran this with one child that I can think of and the mom was just like, please stop doing this.

Speaker A:

And so we did.

Speaker A:

And but truthfully to pivot from that strategy I think took like two years, years for us to find like better or different strategies.

Speaker A:

And then anyways, and so that's where this idea of this like Escape Extinction and probably why at my house, it's like so triggering to me as my husband as like this is not what we want to do.

Speaker B:

And so we talked about how much we don't like it.

Speaker B:

But again like the old, the strategy that we're talking about was just holding a spoon in front of the child's mouth and saying eat it.

Speaker B:

And just like whatever else they did, like we're.

Speaker B:

And then when are you moving past it?

Speaker A:

Sometimes you'd have like a time contingency, like after 20 minutes or something and.

Speaker A:

And then they'd get a 20 minute break and then you'd go back in and then they never can eat anything else though.

Speaker A:

Like so they're not.

Speaker A:

I don't think anyway, it's a bit foggy for me, but I think you just have like this food on the fork and you're just like waiting for them to take a bite of it, I think.

Speaker A:

And there's no.

Speaker B:

Yeah, you got a pee or something and you're just holding it there.

Speaker A:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

Match, match these things do this puzzle with me and take a bite.

Speaker B:

Right, right.

Speaker A:

And so there's.

Speaker A:

Yeah, sometimes would be some other strategies.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

But anyway, that was certainly an old school way.

Speaker A:

And like I said, I do think there is feeding clinics that still operate under this.

Speaker A:

I'm excited for the next episode because ever since that I've been very interested in picky and selective eating and the strategies that go along with it and looking at some of the more neuro affirming and sensory affirming approaches that we can take today.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

And that's what we were both saying is it did not kind at all neurofirming.

Speaker B:

And we talk about like televisability, like would I want someone else seeing me doing this?

Speaker B:

Therapy doesn't feel good.

Speaker B:

And then again you said like the mom was even like, please just like don't do this.

Speaker B:

This does not feel kind.

Speaker A:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

But like I said at the same time, like from a clinical perspective, like my supervisor was like, this kid is so malnourished.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so there's like this why behind it that if we don't do maybe.

Speaker A:

And I think this was their rationale at the time.

Speaker A:

It's like if we don't don't treat this today and we don't make quick progress today that this kid like ends up in the hospital.

Speaker A:

True.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And then I've got another kid that comes to mind that did end up in the hospital several times and his like bowels and stuff are forever impacted because he ended up getting so constipated from not eating a balanced diet.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And so anyways I.

Speaker A:

And that's where like I think the next conversation in this like collaborative care really comes in and informs People, practices and clinic.

Speaker A:

Anyways, clinically, the rationale was that like, these kids were so severe that if we don't do this thing right.

Speaker A:

But I definitely will say 10 years later, we have way better strategies in place even in these like, severe and dire situations that we can be very neuro affirming in.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

So let's talk about, you know, we've.

Speaker B:

We shared a lot of anecdotes, shared a lot of stories, shared a lot of the Instagram advice and how we would sort of tweak in what makes sense in terms of that.

Speaker B:

But let's wrap up in a way to say, like, what are the things that we really value and would do instead from both of our clinical mindsets?

Speaker B:

And then also as moms, and we would say we want to keep that exposure, like with low pressure.

Speaker B:

And so that's again where you're like modeling like, hey, this t, you know, sort of like neutral feedback rather than like enforcing that hierarchy and saying like, no, you must do this before you do this.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

I think overall, like you want to with Interact time to be fun.

Speaker A:

Everyone in your family to want to be there.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

And the way that we approach dinner can make a really big difference would be like my takeaway message here, like, we can put a small amount of the food on that I know you don't usually eat.

Speaker A:

I could serve more safe foods.

Speaker A:

I can make really fun spoons.

Speaker A:

I can get fun plates.

Speaker A:

We can play games at dinner.

Speaker A:

We can do something awesome after dinner.

Speaker A:

We can talk about how the food fuels our body, what it does for the different parts of our body to really keep that dinner time low pressure, that like you said, and neutral.

Speaker A:

And then when those problems arrives, my answer is calm and consistent, is, oh, your belly is full.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And then I'm waiting for a pattern.

Speaker A:

I'm not responding in the moment.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

I'm making a plan after I've developed or after I've seen that there is a pattern to the behavior.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

I think we didn't talk a lot about offering choices, but that is a really great strategy that you can use sometimes.

Speaker A:

Like colors of plates, styles of spoons, shapes of vegetables.

Speaker A:

If you've got like those fancy little cookie cutter things thinking about placement of food, like you were saying, do you want the curry on top of the rice or on the side?

Speaker A:

Like, and I remember a friend of mine came over one time, was like, I would never have thought to offer this many choices to my child.

Speaker A:

I would have just put the plate down and I didn't I truly didn't even know that I was offering that many choices.

Speaker A:

It's just sort of my usual way now.

Speaker A:

And so I think giving them that autonomy and power within the dinner routine.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker A:

Can be really helpful.

Speaker A:

We didn't talk about kids helping with dinner.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

That's a really great strategy.

Speaker A:

I find I can get my kids to eat a lot of vegetables just prepping for dinner.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And then at their dinner time, I serve them way less vegetables because they've eaten or eaten a lot already.

Speaker A:

So.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And we have those like kid friendly knives.

Speaker B:

And so my little one often, often like come up and she loves helping.

Speaker B:

So she'll be cutting the cucumbers.

Speaker B:

And my husband, like, we're not having cucumbers with dinner.

Speaker B:

I'm like, yes, we are.

Speaker A:

Because they're eating them right now.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

So nice.

Speaker B:

And then.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Rolls with dinner too, I find have been really helpful.

Speaker B:

And so we'll give it like a creative spin in our house.

Speaker B:

I may have mentioned this, but we'll do like, who's gonna be the water princess tonight?

Speaker B:

And then like somebody gets the cups and brings it to the table and then like, who's the cutlery king or something or whatever.

Speaker B:

And it just makes it like fun and gives them the role.

Speaker B:

I know that's not talking about eating specifically, but it's like making them meal time.

Speaker B:

Like fun and engaging where everyone kind of like has a fun role.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And that's where the kids are going to succeed.

Speaker A:

And so what I wanted, like to be a take home message today is really showing like where behavior analysis comes in.

Speaker A:

I think a lot of time people don't really know what ABA is or think of it only as something to help children with autism.

Speaker A:

But really we have such a unique role in analyzing what's going on in the those contextual or those like environmental factors.

Speaker A:

Identify.

Speaker A:

Identifying those patterns that are coming up and then figuring out how do we like sort of make some subtle changes here to shift that.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And I love the collaboration that we can do around feeding.

Speaker B:

Like I said, this isn't what I do most days.

Speaker B:

Let's talk about feeding.

Speaker B:

But I do really, like, I have a lot of learning and knowledge around like swallowing and textures and all of that.

Speaker B:

But what I find is like most kids that come to us with a concern of feeding, I might just like rule out that there's no other like medical, like, not, not, sorry, I'm not.

Speaker A:

A doctor, but like I might rule.

Speaker B:

Out that they, you know, they can swallow and do all of those things.

Speaker B:

But most time when they're coming to us, it is what I would call like behavioral.

Speaker B:

Like it is around like their restrictions or their rigidity or like something that has nothing to do with whether they can swallow.

Speaker B:

Yeah, it's that they just like there's something else behind it.

Speaker B:

So that's why I like that collaboration is knowing that like, okay, we can look at it from two different angles but often it's not because like I said, they can't swallow.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

Exactly.

Speaker A:

And like Instagram has lots of advice for us as parents and the strategies aren't right or wrong, they're just like nuanced as to what else is going on in the child's and your family dynamics.

Speaker A:

And overall like our job is to provide those well rounded, nutritious meals, plan thoughtful meal times and then really it's the kids jobs to eat it.

Speaker A:

And if you're running into problems there, hopefully some of the suggestions that we made today are helpful and then if not, please reach out to us.

Speaker A:

We would love to chat further.

Speaker A:

Um, love to get feedback from the listeners about what you're experiencing at dinner time.

Speaker A:

And then on the flip side, if you did try any of these strategies and saw a change, we'd also welcome your comments there.

Speaker B:

Yes, always looking for feedback from our listeners.

Speaker B:

So please reach out to us, tell us what advice you're getting and you know, what's shaped your learning history, even growing up and how that's changed how you parent your own children.

Speaker B:

So thanks so much for listening everyone.

Speaker B:

We're Brittany and Shauna from Neurotransmitters Diversely Speaking.

Speaker B:

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook, check us out, give us your feedback and subscribe so that you can hear all of our next episodes coming up.

Speaker B:

Thank you.

Speaker B:

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Speaker B:

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Speaker A:

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences.

Speaker A:

We'll add also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Speaker B:

See you next time.

Speaker A:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

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Neurodiversally Speaking
Exploring neurodiversity through real-life experiences

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About your hosts

Profile picture for Brittany Clark

Brittany Clark

Speech-Language Pathologist, co-founder of Elemenoe, and proud mom of two wildly imaginative kiddos who keep life very interesting at all times.

Brittany has been an SLP for over a decade, and if there’s one thing she’s learned, it’s this: communication isn’t just about words—it’s about connection. She’s passionate about helping neurodivergent kids find their voice, in whatever form that takes, and supporting families as they learn to truly tune in to what their child is trying to say.

She loves diving into the messy, magical process of language development—especially when it comes to play-based therapy, motor speech, early communication, and finding those “aha!” moments that make it all worth it. Brittany believes therapy should be collaborative, compassionate, and grounded in real life (yes, even when your kid is under the table pretending to be a cat).

At Elemenoe, and now on Neurodiversally Speaking, she’s here to break down the research, share her real-life wins and struggles, and help parents and professionals feel like they’re not in this alone.
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Shawna Fleming

Board Certified Behavior Analyst (BCBA), co-founder of Elemenoe, and mom of two curious, hilarious kids who constantly keep her learning.

Shawna has spent over 10 years supporting neurodivergent individuals across home, school, and community settings—and she’s still just as passionate today as she was when she started. She cares deeply about therapy that’s practical, playful, and packed with purpose. Shawna is especially into early intervention, building school readiness, and helping kids develop the kind of emotional regulation and flexibility that sets them up for long-term success.

But here’s the thing: behavior doesn’t exist in a bubble. Shawna believes real change happens when we zoom out and look at the whole child—communication, environment, relationships and all. That’s why interdisciplinary collaboration isn’t just something she talks about—it’s the foundation of everything she and Brittany do at Elemenoe.

As a clinician and a parent, Shawna knows how overwhelming this journey can be. Her mission is to turn that overwhelm into clarity—to keep things practical and positive—and to help parents and professionals feel confident, connected, and empowered.