School Strategies w/ Dr. Emily Levy

Brittany: 00:00:00

So we know school is often such a barrier for parents. And so in your perspective, like, what's the most common challenges that parents are bringing to you with their, like, challenges with school?

Emily: 00:00:11

Well, to your point, a lot of parents will call me and they really will just break down.

They feel like their child is struggling so much in school, whether it's one skill like reading or multiple skills, reading, writing, math, and they really don't know what to do.

Brittany: 00:00:27

Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:30

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

Brittany: 00:00:32

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:34

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:41

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:47

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:49

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from Elemenoe, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to make Neurodiversally Speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

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You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at hello@NeurodiversallySpeaking.com Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Brittany: 00:01:37

Hey, everyone, it's Brittany. Welcome back to Neurodiversity Speaking. I'm here with Shauna.

Shawna: 00:01:41

Hi, we're really excited to be here.

Brittany: 00:01:43

With Emily Levy from EBL Coaching. So we're excited to chat with Emily and some of the your experience and some of the challenges that our neurodiverse learners face in schools.

So, Emily, again, EBL Coaching.

She brings a really thoughtful lens to learning school systems and supporting neurodivergent students in a way that actually protects their well being. So let's jump in. Emily, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and your training.

Emily: 00:02:11

Sure, be happy to. And first off, thank you guys for.

Shawna: 00:02:13

Having me on the show.

Emily: 00:02:14

Thank you. Excited to be here. So to give you a little history of how I got started, I actually grew up in the field of special education.

My mother was the founder of a school for students with learning disabilities down in South Florida, which is where I grew up. So I started School.

So much of my childhood working at her school, observing students, observing teachers, working with students, and really seeing what an incredible difference having the right methodologies in place were really to the lives of these children. So it's sort of in my blood a little bit.

However, at the time I decided I wanted to carve my own path and kind of not follow in my mother's footsteps at the time. So I went to Brown University for my undergraduate degree and then I actually did two years of finance, of all things total.

I learned a lot actually from that experience, but quickly realized that it just wasn't my calling.

And I just recalled how gratifying, how fulfilling it was working with children, especially neurodiverse children, and again, really seeing what a difference it could make in their lives when the right support is in place. So that's really when I pivoted in my life.

I decided to pursue my master's degree in school special education and then my doctorate degree in general education.

And along the way started to personally work one on one with students who had different types of special education needs, helping them with their academic skills.

And then along the way, over time and very organically formed EBL Coaching, where we now have a wonderful team of learning specialists, each of whom specialize in providing one on one instruction to special education students. So that's a bit of my journey of how I got to where I am today.

Brittany: 00:04:00

Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing.

So we know as clinicians, and then in your experience as well, like school is often such a barrier for parents and comes up as a big stress point that they bring to therapy.

Right from the beginning, we've had students who come to the clinic who the school has said like, they're not appropriate for school right now, which I always feel like is so incredibly challenging. And then parents are sort of caught between this. Like they have to be the ultimate advocate, but also not wanting to like cause conflict.

It can be so, so challenging for them. And so in your perspective, like, what's the most common challenges that parents are bringing to you with their like, challenges with school?

Emily: 00:04:41

Well, to your point, a lot of parents will call me and they really will just break down. They feel like it helped their child.

Their child is struggling so much in school, whether it's one skill, like reading or multiple skills, reading, writing, math, and they really don't know what to do. I think they trust their own child.

They don't necessarily have the skill set material taught very differently now than it did when many parents were kids. So I think they really Struggle with. Watching their child struggle and really not knowing how to help them is something I see pretty often.

Brittany: 00:05:15

Yeah, same with us, I think.

Shawna: 00:05:17

Yeah, yeah, certainly a common thing. And then I think parents are like unsure really, really what to say. Right. The certainly in the school systems.

And then from the opposite perspective, what do you think the schools are missing?

Emily: 00:05:31

Well, I think the schools are not necessarily seeing what's going on at home. And I've noticed is that a lot of kids will kind of hold in their emotions when they're at school.

They might really be struggling, but there's peer pressure.

They don't want to break down in front of their friends and then everything comes crashing when they get home and then it almost falls on the shoulders of the parents to figure out kind of what to do and how to deal with that.

Shawna: 00:05:54

Right, exactly. And we do see that. Right.

So many kids, even like our typically developing children finding like they're holding things together all day at school too, never mind our neurodiverse friends. And then they're falling apart at home. And what does that tell us about sort of what the school environment is like?

Emily: 00:06:11

Well, I think that, you know, kids may feel nervous or uncomfortable about expressing their emotions if they're struggling, going up to their teacher telling the, telling them that they don't understand what to do or they need a concept broken down or re explained and really being able to open up to their teachers. And I think having that relationship and that dynamic is so important to the livelihood and the growth of all children. Really.

Shawna: 00:06:36

Yeah, for sure. I think you touched on a couple of key points there.

One, confidence to go and talk with a grown up about something that you're struggling with and that self advocacy piece and even knowing how to word it right and understanding.

Sometimes we'll see kids that know know about their diagnosis of autism or ADHD see that they are such incredible advocates for themselves because they understand like oh, my brain doesn't work that way or like I don't learn best from that.

And I've seen some incredible kid or youth advocates that are then able to go to this teacher and say, hey, I don't learn this way or this isn't working for me.

But at first you have to have like a deep understanding of what does work for you and how your brain might be maybe different than some of your peers in class to do that advocacy work. And that starts like really early, probably with the parents really knowing how to be a detective to understand what their child does need.

And what are some of the things I'M not sure if it's part of your EBL coaching or separate, but what are some things that you might say to parents to think about and get curious about if they're struggling at school?

Emily: 00:07:46

Well, I think the first line that I always recommend is that the parent should reach out to their child's teacher if they notice that they're struggling at home, they're struggling to get their homework done, they're struggling to read books at night, whatever it is. If a parent is really noticing these struggles, I always suggest start by reaching out to their teacher.

See if the teacher's noticing these same kinds of challenges at school. If so, maybe there are some accommodations that can be put in place at school.

But if the challenges continue, of course, it may make sense to have an evaluation done to see if perhaps something deeper is going on and there are more supports and accommodations that can be put in place.

Brittany: 00:08:26

Right.

Shawna: 00:08:27

Yeah. That reminds me of a conversation we had before, too, talking about how your support needs kind of change over time.

And so maybe you got a diagnosis letter at 3 or something. And then depending on how informative it is, right.

The parents maybe, like sometimes it just says, this child has autism, and that's all the diagnostic letter says.

And then other times you might do like a psychoed assessment or something more informal that dives a little bit deeper into learning styles and preferences and sort of where your strengths and areas of need are and so taught. We were saying that that's really hard for parents too. Right.

Like, if I got that diagnosis diagnostic letter at 3, it doesn't really tell me a lot about how autism shows up for my child. And then maybe I don't have other kids or maybe I do and they also have autism.

And so I'm not sure what's even like in quotation marks, normal to understand my child.

And so do you have any resources or recommendations for families that you recommend to, like, really think about what are some of the ways that my child does show up at school or what are some of the ways that school might be tricky for them?

Emily: 00:09:29

Well, of course it depends completely on the child. And as we all know, there's such a wide range of skills and challenges within each student.

I think that's first off part of why having reevaluations done are important. Not just that initial evaluation, but continuing to have evaluations done because needs and challenges do evolve with time.

For example, a child with autism may be nonverbal when they're three or very little, and then they might develop speaking skills but really struggle with inferencing, with comprehension, with abstract language that a parent might not necessarily know about when they're three, they're just not ready for those kinds of skills. So I think constantly having those evaluations done, staying in touch with teachers, and just really always advocating for your child is just so key.

Shawna: 00:10:15

Yeah, I would so agree. And then I've got. I like looking at executive functioning. I feel like usually that's like.

Gives parents, like, some buckets to sort of think about, you know, how do they do.

And then you can give, like, sort of some specific scenarios, like time management, you know, and talk about, like, maybe there's times where they manage their time really well, like when they're building Lego structures, maybe they're like, very focused and fast at that. And then we might see time management skills around, like brushing your teeth and getting in the shower, like really slow or things like that.

And so I do like to sort of look at the different buckets of executive functioning and see if we can help parents understand sort of what their. Where their child's needs might come in.

And then we can work with the school team, who knows, how the classroom works and what resources are even available at the school level to hopefully help set some plans in place to help the child be successful at school.

Emily: 00:11:07

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:11:08

Yep.

And then I think one of the things that comes up often with our neurodivergent learners, there's sort of some buckets of problems that we might anticipate coming up, or some. Maybe problems isn't the right word, some concerns or some areas of support that we might see. And I think one of those is perfectionism.

And seeing that show up a lot.

And some of the research I've done about you, it seems like that's something that you've also come across in your career, working with neurodivergent individuals. Would you agree?

Emily: 00:11:35

Absolutely. It's something that unfortunately, we do see fairly often. And I think that a lot of it has to do with the language in which children are spoken to.

For example, they might hear phrases like, you're just not trying hard enough or you're being lazy, or just put a little more effort in. You'll get it. When perhaps they just don't have the ability to reach that point. And in turn, they start to feel like they can't.

They have to be perfect in order to be acceptable. And then I think when it comes to autism, for example, there's a lot of black and white thinking, I'm either doing it wrong or I'm doing it right.

Right. Equals perfectionism. And so kind of working through that can be tricky for many, many neurodiverse students.

Brittany: 00:12:15

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:12:16

Yeah. I think our language matters a lot when we're approaching goals.

And I think something that's right now sort of trendy in the therapy world is this growth mindset and this idea of kind of stepping away from perfectionism. Right. In this idea of like, my son said this to me earlier this week, and I was so excited. He's like, I can't do it yet. Yeah.

And that idea of it doesn't. Progress is not perfect. Is not going to look perfect, you know, and sort of using that sort of language when we're chatting with children.

But easier said than done. And then I also like to say to families, like, it's not going to be a quick fix.

You know, just because you start using this language, like this week doesn't mean by the end of the week the child's gonna be like, tolerating making mistakes. With our neurodivergent friends, we see perfectionism show up more often than with neurotypical children. And we might see it show up a.

In a way that's maybe you're not even associating it as being like perfectionism. I was thinking like, avoidance. Do you have you come across this individuals just like, avoiding doing the task altogether?

Emily: 00:13:20

Oh, absolutely. So if they. If there's an assignment for them to do, for example, that they don't feel they can do perfectly, they might avoid it entirely.

They might procrastinate getting started on the assignment. They might turn it in late or never turn it in. So absolutely. A lot of avoidance that we notice that's connected to perfectionism, I think.

Shawna: 00:13:40

Yeah. Getting curious. It seems like it's like the first kind of response, they're like, why aren't you doing this thing?

And sort of figuring out if you think they're avoiding it. And then that's like one part of the puzzle, and then the next part is, why are they avoiding it?

And potentially could be related to this idea of perfectionism. And, like, either I reminds me of a guy that I'm working with right now.

As soon as he makes a mistake on his math work, he rips the entire sheet up and then restarts the whole thing. Because he would rather have the whole thing be correct than have like an eraser mark on it or something like that.

And I've been trying to chat with him about, you know, an eraser would be okay, but to him it just like, is not okay. And so for him, he'd rather just rip it up and restart the whole thing.

Brittany: 00:14:18

I was thinking of another learner that we know of where the teacher is just constantly saying, like, make better choices. Yes, child with autism. And that's similar to what you were talking about, Emily. Like, our language really matters.

And so, you know, a teacher is constantly saying, like, make better choices tomorrow, Shauna.

Shawna: 00:14:34

You know, and it's so frustrating because we know that this child isn't like,.

Brittany: 00:14:37

Making a choice to be, you know, a challenge in the classroom, which is what she's making them sound like. And so if a teacher is using that kind of language with someone, it's like, I think they want to make really good choices.

Maybe we need to step back and, like, look at what's the lesson here or, you know, get curious about why it's challenging for them. I also wanted to just say, sort of, we all acknowledge that there are incredible, incredible teachers out there.

And I think that teachers are like, really in a challenging place. We're in Canada, you're in the us, sort of across everywhere, I think certainly North America, where there's just not enough support available.

And so even though we're talking about the challenges with school today, I didn't want it to come across like we don't have respect for teachers.

We certainly have so, so much respect for the teachers and all the amazing things that they do, but it's challenging for them when they can't sort of give that one on one support to all of their learners in their classroom. So I just wanted to pause for a second and say that. But, yeah, the language really does matter.

And so, you know, sort of shifting then and thinking about, like, how does anxiety and perfectionism go together, do you think, for some of our neurodivergent learners?

Emily: 00:15:39

Well, I think they're very much interrelated.

I think if a child feels like they can't achieve a goal, they can't achieve perfectionism, they start to feel anxious and depressed and it trickles into so many other kind of mental health challenges. So I do think a lot of connection there.

Shawna: 00:15:55

Right, right.

Brittany: 00:15:56

And then you were talking about sort of holding it together all day long and then sort of falling apart when they get home. All of this is connected. And then we talk about masking with our neurodivergent friends too. Right.

And masking sort of like making it look like I'm fine all day keeping it together. And then at home, sort of that release.

Emily: 00:16:12

Absolutely.

Shawna: 00:16:13

And so we might see that refusal. And then I think we also might see like a Meltdown that happens, and it seems out of the blue.

And we often use this, like, bucket analogy of like water going into your bucket, and then eventually that bucket just tips. And so for individuals that struggle with making mistakes, you know, like, you're just bound to make mistakes all day.

You know, you're going to make missteps or that sort of thing. And so all those little drops in the bucket, then you might see there's one, like, small thing, then it leads to like a meltdown or a shutdown.

And then the other thing that we might see is like some more like rigid thinking around perfectionism. And you sort of alluded to this with autism and that we'll see that black and white thinking.

Can you think of some examples around perfectionism and anxiety where you see that kind of show up in your practice?

Emily: 00:17:02

Yeah, Well, I would say oftentimes we'll see characteristics like staying up really late to complete homework or procrastinating, like I said, getting started, being exhausted from doing schoolwork because they're doing assignments over and over, as you alluded to starting an assignment, maybe even being almost done with it. But then some little thing is wrong and they rip up the whole paper and start over again and very draining and exhausting.

And again, I think a parent might think it's something else than it is, but I think a lot of that is tied to perfectionism, anxiety, and all those interrelated challenges.

Shawna: 00:17:38

Right.

And so for you, for you and your practice, if you, if you had someone that was demonstrating these perfectionism, maybe anxiety, like traits, what are some of your approaches? You said language matters.

Emily: 00:17:50

Yeah, so language matters. A lot of it also, we find, is really building your confidence.

So, for example, let's say we're working on writing with the student, and six months ago they could only write one sentence, but now they're able to write a long paragraph. We'll show them the growth in the writing. Six months ago, you could only write one sentence, and look what you're doing now.

You should be so proud of how far you've come with your writing.

And really in a very concrete way, trying to show them their own growth and progress, that in turn they feel more confident about their skills, about themselves. And that really helps in a lot of other areas as well.

Shawna: 00:18:25

I love that it really brings out the coaching aspect of the business name. And we talk about that a lot too, like that we are those coaches for the kids.

You know, we're here to help them learn the skills and language matters for sure. And then coming in with Those coaching moments. Right.

And so with my own kids, I'm cognizant of sort of what work is going to be more challenging for them and what's going to be easier.

And then I want to be there with them doing that more challenging work to help them establish that good internal dialogue that they've got and that growth mindset and then be there to coach them along the way. And then like you said, sort of help them contact that reinforcement.

Reinforcement of look at this awesome thing that you've achieved over like the last couple months. This is phenomenal and I'm so proud of you. And then I think the other piece that I think we'd all agree on is modeling making mistakes too.

It's like I'll come home from work and chat with my kids about mistakes that I've made or if I make a wrong turn on a street, you know, like even the little mistakes I'm making, you know, just sort of laugh about these goof ups or that sort of thing and normalize it.

Brittany: 00:19:27

Yeah. And like you alluded to before, we weren't brought up this way.

Certainly that wasn't like a discussion around our dinner table, like growing up, like, hey, what mistakes did you make today? How did we learn? You know? But we like try to actively do that now, like with our own kids and in therapy too. Right.

Because it is about that modeling and coaching and showing that like, I'm not perfect. Certainly I don't know everything to you.

And I think in these coaching sessions it's nice to be able to say like, hey, I actually don't know how to spell that word. Let's look it up together or I'm not sure what that means. And then teach them how to go about that learning process.

Emily: 00:19:57

Absolutely, I do. With my own kids all the time.

Shawna: 00:20:00

Yeah.

I was saying one other strategy that I do like sometimes if I have a kid that really, really struggles with mistakes, is we'll kind of set that up ahead of time. Like first we might make a game about making mistakes.

And so I'll like kind of set it up ahead of time, like, hey, we're gonna play this game, but we're gonna play it all the wrong way and just like make mistakes and just sort of like desensitize this idea of making mistakes as being anxiety inducing. Take a step back and just make it kind of fun to make mistakes.

And then I usually make a lot of mistakes myself and have them coach me through how I could respond, you know, and I might even start like, we're like, and I'll, like, wait for them to come in and give me some of those strategies, and then we'll work on supporting them with tolerating the making mistakes. Because sometimes going right in with, like, a coaching style is too soon. You know, you haven't built that rapport and connection yet.

And whether you're a parent or a professional, it's important that we kind of take a step back and build that connection before we're going to help them through something as challenging as perfectionism. Right. It's not like learning, I don't know, one plus one or something like that.

This is, like, a real life skill that you're going to have to, like, spend a lot of time working on.

Emily: 00:21:07

Yep, absolutely. I actually had this happen to me just earlier this week. I was.

I went to a conference in St. Louis, and I thought I had my kids with me, and I thought I was presenting a poster. And in my head, I think I was just busy, and I had a poster with me, and I was on the plane, and my presentation was literally that afternoon.

And I looked at the program, and I saw that I was giving a lecture, and I said, oh, my God. And my. My gut instinct was, I can just tell them the truth. I can't do it. And then I said, no, I made this mistake. I'm going to figure this out.

And I managed to pull a lecture together in, you know, three hours.

Brittany: 00:21:40

Oh, wow.

Emily: 00:21:41

Kind of watching what I was going to do in this moment, and it was almost a parenting moment for me because of, I'm not gonna let this mistake stop me from making this happen. And I was anxious, I was nervous. I didn't know if I could pull it off, but I did.

And it was really a lesson that when in those moments, we can figure it out, and you grow and you feel so much more confident when you get through those situations.

Shawna: 00:22:03

I love that. I saw something recently. Brittany and I were chatting about doing it with our kids.

Is you start, like, a box, and you put, like, a little token or, like, a little trinket or something in the box, and it's like, your brave box.

So when you, like, overcome and, like, do something like that, like something that's out of my comfort zone, I did not know that I could figure this out, but I did it. I figured it out. I delivered a lecture onto the fly, and it was fine or hopefully good. Yeah. That's amazing.

And so summing up this, like, perfectionism is one thing that we often see come up with neurodivergent individuals And I think neurotypical children as well. What are some of those red flags or sort of signs that you would say to kind of look out for?

Brittany: 00:22:44

Sure.

Emily: 00:22:44

I would say some of the red flags are number one difficulty, getting started on a task, especially a task that the child may perceive as being challenging or difficult or something that they can't do. Spending an incredibly long time trying to get through an assignment that really shouldn't take that long.

Staying up super late to get homework done, turning in assignments late, really being so exhausted from doing schoolwork. I would say all of those can be red flags.

Shawna: 00:23:10

Yeah, that's great. And then I feel like we've gone through some practical strategies on what you can do if you start to notice some of these signs.

And then what about, like, if I'm a parent and I've noticed some of these things, what might I chat with the school about? Or what do you recommend sort of as an avenue for parents to keep. You want to have a nice relationship with the school.

And I think, like Brittany highlighted, one of the challenges is the lack of resources or training for the school staff. So how can parents be like a good advocate without being that parent in quotation marks?

Emily: 00:23:45

Yes, I know what you mean. Sometimes it's a fine line.

But I think it's important that parents not only reach out to teachers and form a relationship and build a team, but that they use the right language in doing so. Showing their appreciation for the work they're putting in helping their child.

Explaining to them that, we want to work as a team, we're all in this together. Never blaming them, never making them look like the devil, what they're doing is wrong, but really using that positive approach and.

And showing that appreciation, but also sharing.

The parents should share what they're seeing at home and see if the teacher's noticing these same challenges at school and really using that positive language to build that teamwork.

Shawna: 00:24:23

Right, exactly. It sounds like being a little bit proactive, being honest, too. I think sometimes.

Certainly what we hear from parents is they're kind of nervous to share that their child has autism or the diagnosis with the school, thinking the school might say, oh, no, we can't help you. Right. And so what about things to like, what would you say to a parent that's feeling nervous to advocate for their child?

Emily: 00:24:44

Well, I think that first off, I believe that parents will always be their child's best advocate. They know their child best. They really are in the best place to advocate for them.

But I think that coming from a place of honesty, of warmth of wanting to help their child in the best way possible is really important.

Reaching out to teachers early, like you said, being proactive at the beginning of a school year, even beginning of a big project or big assignment that's coming up and seeing if they could work with the teacher to scaffold it, maybe to break it into steps that are a little bit more manageable. So really just trying to constantly be proactive before a crisis happens in really approaching a new task in the best way they can for their child.

Shawna: 00:25:28

Yeah, that's fantastic. And I wonder too, like you must be or I wondered if part of your EVL coaching, are you collaborating with schools and parents often?

Emily: 00:25:37

Yeah.

So we find that as long as a parent's okay with it, of course we do find it really helpful to stay in touch with teachers, other therapists, working with the child to really work as a team in the best way.

Shawna: 00:25:48

Yeah, exactly. That collaboration. Right. And that holistic kind of view. If we're all using the same language and all using the same strategies.

And then of course we often see and I'm sure you as well, in a one on one session, I'm able to get so much more information and I'm able to kind of try out these different things, strategies like you said, like maybe it's scaffolding, but maybe it's something else. And I'm able to really in a one on one scenario, able to know which one of these is going to be more effective where in a school scenario.

I appreciate that you don't have the time to do that. And so let's work together to really figure out the unique learning profile of this child and what could I be doing in my session? So as a.

At EBL coaching or for us at Elemental, what could I be doing in my sessions that would help you at the school? Right. Is like really we're trying to. I don't want them to need my one on one support forever. I want to help be a bridge. Right.

To help them be in school more often or to be more successful at school. And so my job as a professional is really to be a good collaborator with all of you guys and see what I can.

How can I take something off your plate at school and really do that? Unique assessing.

Brittany: 00:26:52

Is.

Shawna: 00:26:52

Is this part of your process as well?

Emily: 00:26:54

Yeah, I mean we're not official advocates per se. There are a lot of professionals that really help parents through the advocacy piece.

But just by getting to know the student, we'll give tips to parents and yes, we'll try to work again collaboratively with the teacher and show them and explain to them what's working for the child on a one on one basis. That can probably help in the classroom setting as well.

Shawna: 00:27:15

Exactly. That's what we find too.

Like you just get to know sort of these unique areas of strength and growth for the individuals that we get to support because it is one on one and you're able to really dive in and build those connections and have some interesting conversations.

I've got to imagine with you working with a more broader range of neurodiverse individuals that you probably get some really interesting feedback or conversations with these youth or teens about like what's kind of going on in their brain and what's helpful to them or what's not helpful to them. Would you say that's the case?

Emily: 00:27:48

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Shawna: 00:27:50

I've got to imagine just like the teenagers and stuff, what they might have to advocate for or vc.

Emily: 00:27:57

Yep, yep.

Shawna: 00:27:58

And so some of the things that you guys support individuals with is more academic, is that correct or is it a broader range?

Emily: 00:28:04

It's mostly academic. And then we do also do a lot of executive functioning, study skills, organizational skills, that kind of thing.

Shawna: 00:28:11

Great. And then where are you guys? Are you all over the place? Are you in one central location?

Emily: 00:28:16

Physical locations are in New York City and New Jersey. But then we do virtual tutoring actually not just nationwide, but worldwide. We have students in Asia and Europe and really all over the world.

It's just been a great way to reach out to students who might not have this kind of specialized support available in their local geographic area. So that's been really exciting for us.

Brittany: 00:28:36

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:28:37

And were you guys virtual pre pandemic or just post pandemic?

Emily: 00:28:41

We would do Skype tutoring, which no one really knew about. Funny that they never really stepped it up. Yeah. So I. A little bit. But it definitely skyrocketed a lot more after. During COVID and then after.

Brittany: 00:28:52

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:28:53

I think we've all learned a lot, like the power of virtual and how kids convenient it can be for families. For some families and individuals to do their therapy online so that no one has to drive anywhere.

And then I think it's like amazing what we figured out to do online. Like I've done sessions with like 2 year olds for an hour online doing like language therapy and stuff.

And it's like truly amazing what we can do online now and does take down some of those barriers where people maybe wouldn't have been able to access services like yours.

Emily: 00:29:21

Absolutely.

Shawna: 00:29:23

And then I wanted to Ask about the people that work for you, what is their role and do they have, what's their training like?

Emily: 00:29:32

Yes. So they're all learning specialists really, and they each specialize in different skill areas.

So for example, some are early childhood reading specialists, some are high level math specialists, some specialize just in executive function and coaching. So each specialize in different skill and age levels.

And typically as a first time step, I'll evaluate the child myself, gauge their needs, to gauge who I think they would work well with, and then from there I make that individual match.

Shawna: 00:29:59

Ah, very cool. And that's like another benefit of virtual too that we've found is with virtual services then you're not tied to a geographic area.

You can say, oh, Britney really specializes in literacy. This person needs to work on literacy.

They'll be a perfect match versus Britney's in New Jersey and I don't know, she knows a lot, like a fair amount about literacy, but she's not super passionate about it. But you know, they're both in New Jersey so they can work together.

Emily: 00:30:21

You'll be allowed like that ideal match because there's more options. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:30:25

That's amazing. And then your assessment process, what is that like, are you in person, are you virtual? You're both?

Emily: 00:30:31

Yeah. So combination of both. Typically I'll do an overall assessment of their reading, spelling, writing and math skills.

And it's also an opportunity for me to meet the child, get to know them a little bit, get a sense of their personality, and then again work on who I think the best match would be for them. And also a lot of our students will come with IEPs or evaluations and if that's the case, I find it really helpful to review those as well.

Shawna: 00:30:54

Right, I bet, I bet.

And then are you, I imagine this must be a very informative report that you're writing after this assessment that the parents could then learn kind of how their child learns.

Emily: 00:31:04

Yes, exactly. And then we'll come up with a learning plan from that as well.

Shawna: 00:31:08

Amazing. And then how often are you seeing these individuals for?

Emily: 00:31:12

Totally varies based on the needs of each student. We have some kids that we see as little as once a week, one hour sessions, and then others that we see see every day for two hours or more.

So it really varies. It's all very much kind of catered to the needs of each student.

Shawna: 00:31:25

Ah, okay, very cool. It sounds similar to what we do. Ish. And then are you guys funded by insurance or anything or is it private pay?

Emily: 00:31:35

So it is private pay do in New York City. Take funding from the New York City Department of Education, deprived of special education services.

So we try to work with families as much as we possibly can financially when there's not funding in place.

Shawna: 00:31:52

Okay, yeah, great.

Brittany: 00:31:53

Yeah, nice.

Shawna: 00:31:54

Very cool. Okay.

And then the next thing I was hoping to chat about is you've got some articles out on your website and so is there any of them that you're like really passionate about or one that's a recent one that's come out that you're really excited about?

Emily: 00:32:10

You know, I think I'm really passionate about all the articles. I think I really love the ones where I give strategies that parents can use at home with their child.

Whether it's a strategy for time management or strategy for how to help them get their homework done or set up a study space or organize their thoughts when, when they're writing.

I find that a lot of parents will read those and when I speak to them about their child, they'll say, oh, I read that article and it was exactly my child. And those strategies were so helpful. So I think I just really like helping parents learn how to help their child anyways as they can.

Shawna: 00:32:44

Yeah, great. Yeah. I would highlight your. And we'll put in our show notes because the articles on there seem very hands on and practical advice.

And I think you brought up time management, which is one that comes up often as being an issue in the school environment and then at home too. I told Brittany a funny story of a guy that was taking like 40 minute showers and it was driving his family crazy.

And they, the mom was like, I don't know what to do do. I'm not sure. And then all we did was put in. We had him put a timer and see how long his shower was.

And after the first day when he saw he was taking a 40 minute shower, he's like, oh God, that's way too long. And he changed right away and started taking just like 10 or 15 minute showers. But he was like genuinely blind like to the time.

Had no idea that he was in there for that long.

And so that time blindness certainly being something that we'll see at the clinic and time management being something that certainly comes up often in the school. Right. There's so much stuff going on in the classroom. What do I.

How do I stay focused on what I'm trying to do and manage my time and make sure I get all these things done. So what are some of your sort of strategies you might give to a parent if their child is struggling with time management?

Emily: 00:33:49

Yeah, so there's some. A few strategies, Several strategies. But just to give you a few. Yeah. One strategy that I really like is the ET versus 80 strategy.

So let's say a child has an assignment to complete for school. Call it a one sheet math math worksheet.

What we'll have them do is predict how much time they think it's going to take to complete that worksheet, which is the estimated time.

And they'll write down the ET and then they'll keep a tab on the time it actually takes them to complete that assignment and they'll write down the at, which is the actual time. And we find that in the beginning when a child struggles with time management, there's a big discrepancy between those two times.

But as they practice this strategy, it really draws their attention to how long tactics tasks actually take to complete. And in turn it really helps to build their time management skills. So helpful one.

Another one that I really like is the Pomodoro method, which you may be familiar with it where if a child really struggles to complete multiple assignments, they can't get started, they just get distracted. The way the Pomodoro method will work is they carve out 25 minutes to work on their schoolwork. They set a timer.

At the end of the 25 minutes they get a five minute break to do whatever they want. Then another cycle, 25 minutes on 5 minutes break.

And then at the end of four cycles they can take a longer 15 to 30 minute or so break and it gives them some scaffolding just to help manage their time, manage their schoolwork and get things done in a more efficient manner.

Shawna: 00:35:17

Yeah, great. I love both of those. The actual time versus my estimated time is one of my favorites. And I think you can do it in a really fun way too.

Right at home we could be playing funny games. Like I sometimes will use like minute to win it challenges.

And instead of maybe setting the timer for a minute, seeing like I don't know how many cups can we, or let's see how long it takes us to get 10 cups stacked or something like that. And then in the reverse, like when it's time crunch, let's see how many we can do in a minute. Right. And how long is a minute really?

And then what about one minute versus two, two minutes? Am I actually getting twice as much work done or does like your effort wane kind of partway through? Right.

Because that's what happens when we're working for chunks of time too, like in the Pomodoro method. If I'm working for 20 minutes, I'm probably off task for some of that.

And so how do I get myself back on task or like be more aware that I've gotten off task and getting myself back on task and that that's sort of a natural part of effort is you might have more effort at the beginning or at the end and the middle part, sometimes we'll see the effort or the focus might decline a little bit, depending on what you're working on. So I think those are some really good strategies that families could take away with the Pomodoro method, if you're at home chunking, like homework.

Right. Could be a nice strategy there. And then what we've played around with clinically is how long should that middle break be?

So we've got the long break at the end. For some clients, we found like the 5 minute break is just like not enough. A 10 minute break works better.

And so kind of playing around with what's your work time versus what's your break time and customizing that to your child and kind of tricky to do. But what are some of the things you might look for to know that one of these methods is working?

Emily: 00:37:04

Well, I think to your point, there is a lot of trial and error really with all of these strategies, particularly with the Pomodoro method. For some kids, 25 minutes is just too long. They're. They're off task, they can't sustain their focus.

And it might be that they need 15 minutes on and then a five minute break, or maybe they can do 30 minutes on and then take a 10 minute break.

So I think a lot of it is just trial and error, trying different time frames, seeing what's working, what's not working, and just kind of tweaking it accordingly.

Shawna: 00:37:31

Right? Yeah. And I think it's all part of that investigation that we talked about at the beginning. Right. How do you get to know yourself too?

Because me, like 20 minutes of math work or like doing spreadsheets and stuff, that would go by so fast for me. But 20 minutes of doing like marketing something, just like, I would kill me. It would feel like it was never ending, you know.

And so I think also like, that information about yourself is really insightful. And for the students and the parents to understand too, when they're doing this type of work, they're very focused.

But when we're doing writing tasks, really like a five minute chunk is where we're at right now. And then we take a break and then we go back and really feeling like customizing it by the type of task is important too.

Emily: 00:38:11

Yeah, absolutely.

Brittany: 00:38:12

And then thinking about time management. You also talk about some apps that you might recommend for parents on your website. So you know, executive functioning.

We've been talking about all these things and as a parent, if you're not as sort of well versed in some of these strategies, like maybe you've never heard of this pomodoro method or something, something, then apps can be kind of useful. Right. And so you talk about a couple on your website. Do you have any top of mind that you often recommend?

Emily: 00:38:36

Well, I think that smartphones can be used in a lot of ways to help students who struggle with time management. Yeah, basic things like setting an alarm for 30 minutes before a task.

Brittany: 00:38:49

Exactly.

Emily: 00:38:49

I mean, if they have to be somewhere in an hour, maybe set it an hour before as a reminder. But setting those reminders I think is hugely beneficial.

So just really using some of the basic functions of phones can really help Using an electronic calendar. It used to be that we'd have to walk around with the physical calendar, but now so great to keep everything. And then there's automatic reminders.

Yeah. Taking notes within the notes app so that you don't have to always have a sheet of paper.

So I think there's a lot of just basic tools that can be utilized that really come with the iPhone that can help with time management, a lot of other skills.

Brittany: 00:39:24

Yeah, for sure. Such a good point that it is not about like a fancy app necessarily.

And certainly there are some and we'll share in your show notes, like some that you really like, but that there's just the like built into most smartphones now, like the notes or the reminders and the calendar alerts and stuff.

Shawna: 00:39:37

I think the like critical thing there is not to blame the tool either. Right. Like sometimes we'll hear like, oh, timers don't work with my kid. Yeah, well, it's not the tool that's not working.

It could be an aspect of the tool for sure that they don't like. Like maybe the date dinging sound of the timer they don't really like.

Or I use timers often at my own house and my son I was using or the Google timer in his room, he has a Google speaker. And then he let me know he did not like that because when it goes, it's like scary.

Brittany: 00:40:02

Oh yeah.

Shawna: 00:40:03

And so he would prefer that I have the timer and then I come and let him know when the time is up. And so again, just like that. It's like a Small change, you know, But I didn't just say like, oh, we're never using a timer again.

You know, like, let's think of a new solution here because I'm keeping in the time we're in because it keeps us on track for what we need to do before bed or whatever.

Brittany: 00:40:20

Yeah.

Or put a cool song instead of the like, you know, maybe we can put on like his favorite tune right now, which would be kind of fun and like, oh, cool, then my song's on.

Shawna: 00:40:29

I gotta go.

Brittany: 00:40:31

Yeah, very cool.

Shawna: 00:40:33

So and then shifting a little bit. You talked about you do a lot.

Brittany: 00:40:36

Of sort of coaching for reading, writing and then I know math, but I'm particularly interested in, as a speech pathologist in the reading and writing stuff. What are your sort of go. I don't know if you. Do you have like a go to approach or something that you used?

I know you talk about Orton Gillingham on your website and like, that's probably one of the tools that you have. But I'm thinking specifically for neurodiverse learners as well. Like for parents listening, are they.

Should they be looking for someone who is like skilled in these different areas if they're wanting to support their child? Child's like literacy development.

Emily: 00:41:10

Sure. So really, pretty much everything that we do is multi sensory by nature. We.

Which we would just be the most effective approach for working with neurodiverse students involves tools like colored highlighters, magnetic tiles, whiteboards, mini audio visual flashcards. All these different kinds of tools as part of a structured curriculum.

Brittany: 00:41:31

Yeah.

Emily: 00:41:31

And in that a lot of it really depends on what aspect of reading the child is struggling with. Is it decoding? Is it reading fluency, Is it comprehension, is it a combination thereof?

And then really we try to target those specific skills using an approach that's best for that child.

Shawna: 00:41:48

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:41:49

And you know, the words that you said there, you. And I understand Shauna too, because she works in this space. But like, let's break that down for parents a little bit.

Like thinking of my, you know, I may know my from the report card. My child is having a hard time reading. But that there are like so many different components. Components to that.

Emily: 00:42:04

Right.

Brittany: 00:42:04

So do you want to break down.

Shawna: 00:42:05

A little bit like what are those.

Brittany: 00:42:06

Components so that a parent can understand? Like, oh, there's actually like you said, fluency, comprehension, decoding. Like what does all that look like?

Emily: 00:42:14

Sure. Well, decoding is more of the phonetic aspect of reading.

So being able to really sound out words accurately, of course, is a key component of reading. There's Also reading fluency, being able to read at an appropriate pace.

Times we find that when the reading fluency is so slow, it affects the student's ability to comprehend what they're reading. Sometimes it is a comprehension issue, they're not understanding the material.

But a lot of times we find that it's not necessarily a comprehension issue.

It's the decoding and fluency skills are affecting comprehension because they're putting so much effort into sounding out words, into reading fluency that they're not able to process and understand what they're reading.

There's also vocabulary, some very weak vocabulary, and therefore they're not able to understand the passage that they're reading because of their vocabulary skills. So we want to always try to identify which aspects of reading the child is struggling with and then really target those specifically.

Brittany: 00:43:13

Right, Exactly.

And then would you say that the like when I was doing looking at a systematic review of multi sensory approaches for literacy, I find the literature is still sort of mixed and saying like the multi sensory part is the evidence behind it is is not as strong as it potentially could be.

Shawna: 00:43:32

Would you agree with that?

Emily: 00:43:33

Well, I think it's all about the child. Again.

Brittany: 00:43:35

Yeah.

Emily: 00:43:36

There are different types of multi sensory tools. They don't all work for every child.

We've talked about with, with other things, if something isn't working, we need to pivot and try some other strategies that may work better.

Some kids really well with the visual, with visual diagrams and colors and others do better with a linear approach to learning and understanding material. So again, it really goes back to pivoting, tweaking and really identifying what's best for each student.

Brittany: 00:44:02

Yeah. And making it individualized for sure.

And then, you know, when you were talking about the multi sensory approach, when you first started mentioning it, you said like we use different colored markers or highlighters or something. And I was thinking maybe that makes the task more reinforcing.

So, you know, part, partly we're doing like using multi sensory approach, but we're also like using these things that the child might just like a little bit more. Like, I know my youngest doesn't love working on writing and she has this like cool glow in the dark pen that works with this like my.

I don't know how to describe it, but like a cool writing tool and she's so much more motivated to use that because it's fun and it's like pink writing and it glows and lights up and stuff. So is that part of it too? It's like maybe just more like inherently reinforcing when we're using these like, fun kind of tasks.

Emily: 00:44:46

Absolutely. I think it helps them. We get more buy in because they're interested in the task. Yes, I do think that's a part of it as well.

Brittany: 00:44:53

Cool. And that's what I was thinking the.

Shawna: 00:44:54

Whole time that you guys are talking. I'm not as familiar with the research and the space for multi sensory whatever your different reading approaches are.

Brittany: 00:45:01

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:45:02

But I was thinking, like, really, that's what we do at the clinic all the time.

Brittany: 00:45:06

Right.

Shawna: 00:45:06

Is just like, bring in things that you, like, enjoy to learning.

And like, I definitely want to do this task if I have a really cool pen and I'm not as interested to do it if I have a pencil, you know, and like, do we work back to the pencil? Hopefully, you know, and like.

But hopefully then I've also brought down your walls where maybe you've had a, like a long learning history where you've been punished in situations where you've been kind of forced to write with a pen or a pencil, you know, and so writing now is something where I shut down and I avoid those tasks because I'm not good at them or because it's hard for me. Right. And so just changing up the stimuli and using a different colored pen or writing in sand or whatever the different approaches are. Right.

Just like kind of, I think, brings potentially some anxiety down to make it so that I'm actually open for learning and connecting and writing is joyful again. And so whether the what the research says or like, it might be that we don't like, like you said, we don't use this approach with everyone.

But as an educator or someone that's like hoping to help a child learn something, I want to make sure it's joyful and fun and that I've made this approach something that you're buying into, and that's what we're seeing a lot, is if the learners have bought into the approach, you're going to see that faster progress, Right?

Brittany: 00:46:14

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:46:14

So maybe they could write with a pencil and learn just as well. But is the learning faster because they're having way more fun right along the way? Maybe.

Brittany: 00:46:22

Yeah. Are there any other tools that you use specifically for neurodivergent learners that maybe our listeners can benefit from?

Emily: 00:46:29

Well, there's so many tools.

I mean, the one that comes to mind which is kind of connected to highlighting, is an active reading strategy that we use, which really helpful for kids who struggle to engage with text, who struggle with comprehension, where we teach them that when we read there's three elements that we should look for. The first is the topic, which is usually one, two or three words describing the passage, like World War I. And we highlight the topic in blue.

And then we learn about the main idea, which is what the author saying about the topic. So let's say the topic is World War I. The main idea might be there were many causes of World War I. And that we highlight in blue.

And then we go through and we highlight the important details in yellow. So we'll have them read the passage first as an initial read and then go back and highlight these elements.

Really helps again to engage them in the text. It brings in that multisensory component, ultimately helps to build their comprehension skills.

Brittany: 00:47:20

And it sounds like the repetition would be helpful then. So then I know if I'm always going to be looking for that topic and then I'm always looking for that, like, what is this, this main idea?

And then sort of the supporting ideas and like going, maybe the colors are helping me learn that, like these are the most important things I gotta do every time I'm reading. And so that repetition in practice is really what's like helping them figure this out.

Emily: 00:47:42

Absolutely.

Brittany: 00:47:43

Cool.

Shawna: 00:47:43

Okay. Yeah, I like that.

Brittany: 00:47:44

That's a great strategy. Nice. Yeah, perfect.

Shawna: 00:47:47

Great. Okay.

I feel like these are some really good strategies for parents for anyone that might be struggling with perfectionism or maybe anxiety showing up. And what does that look like? As well as some time management strategies, which again, are often ones that come in the final sort of bucket.

I was thinking from an executive functioning lens that often comes into the clinic for us is emotion regulation. And I don't know if you guys touch it much on it. I got to imagine it's embedded though, in reading, math, writing.

Like, these are things that often evoke kind of big behaviors or big response responses. And so do you guys do any work around emotion regulation at EBL Coaching?

Emily: 00:48:27

You know, it's a little bit out of our wheelhouse because we focus more on the academic piece. But of course there's a lot of. It's interrelated.

One strategy that we'll often do to help build confidence and help with emotional regulation is when we introduce a new strategy. We start by utilizing more basic levels. So, for example, if we're using.

If we're teaching an active reading strategy like the one I described before, we won't necessarily start at the. At the reading level.

We'll start with one or two grade levels below to build their confidence, to help them really understand the strategy and Say, you know what? I get this. I can do it.

And then gradually increasing the complexity of the material to build their confidence, make them feel good about it, and reduce some of those emotional challenges that might come with, I can't do this. This is too hard for me. And that's what.

Shawna: 00:49:13

Yeah, I love that. So you're sort of know ahead of time. Right. Like, every time they're asked to write, they. They refuse.

Like, you'd get sort of that stuff at intake or potentially even during your assessment. And then what you're doing is then taking a step back and saying, okay, how do I make this less stressful for you? Right.

How do I make this something that you're willing to approach? And by making it a little bit easier, then that's something that then, okay, I can do this.

And I love this idea of supporting emotion regulation by building confidence. Right.

It's not like you're saying, I, I'm teaching you what to do when you're mad, but I am teach reframing reading for you, or I'm reframing writing for you so that it doesn't feel like I can't do, you know, doesn't feel like something I can't do it ever again. It feels like something that I'm working on and I can't do yet. And then you guys are really systematically kind of building that up and in.

That's obviously a common tool we use in Ava as well. Break things down, take a step back. And I. I always recommend starting, like, you, like, a couple steps sort of behind where they're at.

And that way we're building success from the beginning, building that confidence. Like, you can do this. This is a tough thing. You've got the skills.

And then I'm going to come in and reinforce you for doing an awesome job with this thing. And then we're going to get back to where you were. Right. And where the struggles or that breakdown is really happening.

But you and I have already built up that confidence, so I'm prepared to kind of coach you through this. And then, then we've built this trusting relationship, too, you and the child, where the child's like, okay, yeah, I trust you.

I know you're not just, like, throwing me to the wolves and expecting me to write a paragraph. You know, I know that you're like, along the way, and I'll listen to you as a coach now, too, because I trust you.

And we've built that connection from the beginning.

Emily: 00:50:51

Exactly.

Shawna: 00:50:52

I love it.

Brittany: 00:50:52

I was thinking when you were talking about the materials, like going a couple levels, maybe two grade levels below or something like that. It doesn't mean we're necessarily pulling out like a board book.

Like, I know you, you were in a setting, Shauna, this week where I was like a 14 year old or something and they had like a sort of a baby book that they were presenting and it was like, okay, there's other materials out there that don't necessarily mean like, you're pulling out baby books sort of thing for someone who's struggling to read.

Shawna: 00:51:17

Right.

Brittany: 00:51:17

And that's important too, that we make the, the material sort of like approachable and like build their confidence, but also sort of being thoughtful about how we're presenting it. So.

So I know when my kids sometimes bring books home from school, I'll say this is a great one that mom's going to read to you because it's one of those, like, leveled readers. I've got my air quotes here and it'll say like, level one.

But I know that it's not really like appropriate for a kindergarten level or a grade one level. And I think that's something I wish that was easier to communicate to parents.

Like, those leveled readers often aren't actually following the levels that we really want you to and like, how that can build in been so much frustration for learners. Right. If you're bringing home this book and it's like, I see a roof, I see a door, I see a whatever. Like, yeah, though it's repetitive.

You haven't learned like all of those ways to decode double O. And hey, it's not even the same in roof and door.

Shawna: 00:52:12

And like, how do I learn how to do this?

Brittany: 00:52:14

That instantly we're going to see that like frustration and breakdown. Whereas if we're using like a decodable book that is at their level and like using simpler forms, that that's going to get lead to much more success.

Right. And so in this long tangent that I'm on, I was thinking, I listened to one of your other podcasts that you had done and you talked about.

Shawna: 00:52:31

How you made some resources because you.

Brittany: 00:52:34

Found that stuff out there maybe wasn't like. And that's what we find too, right. We're frustrated with some of the literacy based. So we've designed some cool early level reading stuff too.

And I know when my own kids were learning to read, like, finding the right material materials was like the hardest. So do you want to speak on that? Because I think that's hard for parents and educators.

Shawna: 00:52:53

Right.

Brittany: 00:52:53

Like, some of the resources that are out there aren't necessarily following, like, the Science of Reading and. How frustrating.

Emily: 00:52:59

Yeah, absolutely. So. So I've written three different series of student workbook materials.

One is called Strategies for study Success, which focuses on reading comprehension, writing, test taking, note taking, and executive functioning skills.

Brittany: 00:53:11

Yeah.

Emily: 00:53:11

Flag stars, Orton Gillingham Student Workbook series and the Flags of Multisensory Math series.

And the reason why, as you alluded to, I created these series is because I couldn't find books, workbooks, and materials out there that were clear and easy for students to understand and give them a practice within each skill in order to move on to the next one. I found so many books were confusing. They introduced too many concepts at the same time, didn't give them enough practice.

And that's ultimately why I created these materials which have really been effective.

Of course, I've modified them over the years, and I've just found for the types of students we work with, they really needed that and I just couldn't.

Shawna: 00:53:49

Find that out there.

Brittany: 00:53:51

Yeah, cool. Well, we'll put those in the show notes too.

But I would say we're finding that same challenge is like, now going through it as moms, ourselves and like, helping our own kids. And then in the clinic, of course, like, frustrating when the materials don't match. Like, I know I'll get really frustrated.

Frustrated if it's like, oh, that we shouldn't have used that digraph, or like, the child isn't there yet, so of course they can't, like, decode this certain thing. And then we're just like, it's building into this frustration that they. Of course, it's already a hard skill.

And then if the materials aren't quite right, it can be even more frustrating.

Emily: 00:54:22

Definitely.

Shawna: 00:54:22

Yeah. I was thinking we are talking about taking a really individualized lens. And so going back to grade levels is definitely one option. Right.

But there's other ways that we can can modify our expectations. If, like, I have a learner that I work with, he's highly intelligent.

If I tried to show him work from two grades before, yeah, he would be like, no, thanks. You know, like, he'd be on to me and, like, know what I was up to.

And so some other ways that we might break or change up a task is like adding in some of those fun materials like you talked about. Maybe I'm this guy that I'm thinking of, he loves trains and Garfield.

And so maybe we're reading Garfield text or we're reading facts about trains, or maybe I'm breaking the text down so that we're only reading a couple sentences and then doing a check in or like, you know, it's like there's lots of different ways that we can customize things. And I feel like that's what we've sort of.

Our thesis of the whole podcast is really that individualized approach and taking a step back, knowing what works for the learner, and trying out a strategy that you think works. What might be good with professional guidance is definitely helpful because we have a unique lens, right.

Where we're able to kind of look outside and know kind of all the strategies available and then customize based on their unique profile. But really that customization piece being a big key.

And then at the clinic, I'll often say to staff, like, you might find you got like 10 failures before you get that one success. And the child might say to you, like, automatically, I don't like that. Nope, not that one either.

And our job is to get creative and really keep thinking outside the box.

Emily: 00:55:54

Yes, absolutely.

Shawna: 00:55:56

I love that. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us.

I thought, what could we leave with, like, a practical strategy or like, what you might say to parents for how can they be a strong advocate at the school level if their child is falling behind?

Emily: 00:56:15

Well, I think, like I kind of alluded to earlier, I think using the right language, showing compassion, appreciation for teachers, but at the same time building a relationship, reaching out initially, setting up a plan of communication, and just always working as a team is ultimately what will be best for the child.

Shawna: 00:56:36

I love that and totally agree. And I would add in, like, documenting things as well.

That way you've got some stuff to go back on to if you're not seeing sort of those changes happen at the school level or also for yourself. It's like, a lot to take in at these meetings, and lots of people are chatting and a lot of professionals usually.

And then can you think of, like, a mindset shift that you might give to parents, particularly of parents of neurodiverse children, that might help them sort of navigate the nuances that come with raising a neurodivergent child?

Emily: 00:57:05

Sure. I think sometimes it's very easy to get lost in the struggles and the challenges in a lot of negative emotions.

But I think that there are so many incredibly successful neurodiverse individuals out there.

I mean, I could probably name 100 off the top of my head, but business executives, CEOs, celebrities, actors who are neurodiverse but have been incredibly successful in life. And so I think just knowing that every child has gifts, every child has the ability to succeed in life.

Sometimes getting through school is the challenge. But know that your child has the ability to be successful in life.

Brittany: 00:57:43

Yeah, I love that.

Shawna: 00:57:44

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It was a lovely conversation and I think some really great actionable tips and strategies.

And then we'll put lots of stuff in the show notes with your EVL coaching. There's lots of great resources on the air and hope that we can continue the conversation in the future.

Emily: 00:58:01

Sounds amazing. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much.

Brittany: 00:58:05

Much, Emily. Perfect. Thanks. Take care.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 00:58:17

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 00:58:30

See you next time.

Shawna: 00:58:31

Bye.