Communication: More Than Just Words!

Brittany: 00:00:00

Parents hear that all the time. Like your child's communication skills are developing or we're working on functional communication. We certainly say that all the time, even.

We even call it fc. I think we use that acronym sometimes. But what are we actually talking about? Is it talking? Is it pointing? Is it tantrums?

Shawna: 00:00:16

And. Yeah, could be all the above or none of the above.

Brittany: 00:00:20

Yeah, exactly. So super clear. Thank you. Hey everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

Shawna: 00:00:29

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst.

Brittany: 00:00:31

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

Shawna: 00:00:33

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Brittany: 00:00:40

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Shawna: 00:00:46

Let's get started.

Narrator: 00:00:47

Welcome to the Neurodiversity Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram eurodiversityspeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at helloeurodiversityspeaking.com diversely speaking starts now.

Shawna: 00:01:35

Welcome back to Neurodiversely Speaking, the podcast where we get curious about communication, behavior and all the wonderfully weird ways people connect. I'm Shauna, a behavior analyst.

Brittany: 00:01:45

Hey, I'm Brittany. I'm a speech language pathologist. If you guys know me, you know I love babies. I love hearing them say their first sounds and their first words.

I'm really excited to chat today about what we got. Yay.

Shawna: 00:01:57

Perfect. We do have a little bit of a slower start today than usual. Both feeling a little bit tired.

My two and a bit year old was awake from 2am until 5am and as soon as we had put him back in his bed, he would just show up at my pillow again. Of course we transitioned him into a big boy bed.

It was going really, really well and then we all got really sick and sort of all the rules went out the window. And so when we first transitioned him to a big boy bed, it was like he didn't know that he could.

Brittany: 00:02:24

Get out and so he Would just.

Shawna: 00:02:25

Stay in there and yell for us every once in a while. But he was like, mostly pretty good. And we just stay in his bed.

And then when he got sick, he realized that he could get out of bed and then he could come and see me. And so it's been a hard adjustment back to real life. And last night was so terrible. At 4am I'm like, Tim, I gotta get some sleep.

I need you to get up. I am dying. And then he showed up nine more times.

Brittany: 00:02:53

Probably so happy too.

Shawna: 00:02:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, hello, mama, wanna play? Yes. We're draw to train them with our hatch system. About like that red light means it's sleep time.

Brittany: 00:03:05

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:03:05

And so you need to be in bed when the red light is on.

Brittany: 00:03:07

Right.

Shawna: 00:03:08

And so I'm hopeful he'll get there, but it's been a rough time and as you know, I've been sick myself, so.

Brittany: 00:03:14

Yeah. You can still hear it in your voice a little. Yeah, yeah, it's been rough. We had a slow start to our morning too.

But different reasons I do find when the kids are sick. You're right. Like, everything on routine gets off routine. And it's so hard to transition back to school to their own rooms. It's very tricky.

Shawna: 00:03:30

Yeah, exactly. And like, I do think a good thing to keep in mind and actually clinically this is relevant.

There's must be like a terrible bug going around in our region because we had a couple of kids off the at the clinic that were also quite sick for extended periods of time.

Brittany: 00:03:43

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:03:43

And so I had this one little dude that we're supporting at a school and was just before the next session, I was just reminding the therapist, hey, like, make sure you're like, going back and changing your reinforcement system. Don't expect him to follow sort of what we had expectations for before he was sick because he was off school.

Brittany: 00:04:00

For over a week. Good point.

Shawna: 00:04:02

And so like this first day back, like, gotta help him, like, ease back in, you know, and like, he's also like, not 100%. Like, he's okay to be back at school, but probably not feeling that well.

Brittany: 00:04:11

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:04:11

And so I think it's an important consideration too, that we need to adapt our expectations sort of depending on like, all those contextual factors that impact our ability to sort of meet what other people think that we can do.

Brittany: 00:04:24

Yeah, absolutely right. And give the all kids that kindness when we're trying to transition back. Because it is tricky.

All right, well, today's episode, we're calling words waving and what counts as communication. So we're actually really excited about to talk about this, actually. What topic are we not excited?

But we're talking about those early moments when humans start reaching out to other humans. Sounds so robotic there. When humans reach out to other humans.

But we're going to dig into what's messy, what's beautiful in the beginning of communication. So what we know is it's not just words, but it's eye contact, gestures, vocalizations, and sometimes even behavior.

Shawna: 00:05:03

Yeah, exactly.

And so we'll look at developmental science in both speech, language pathology, and ABA and define communication and how those definitions sometimes come together and collide.

Brittany: 00:05:15

Exactly. And then we'll also look at what it means to support communication in ways that are neural affirming.

Of course, on our podcast, Neurodiversity Speaking, we always want to bring in that neurodiversity lens and keep things feeling deeply human, of course. So for our neurodiverse learners, communication can be hard.

And being knowledgeable about other ways that we can communicate with them and help them help to provide that support earlier before they're having a meltdown or a tantrum or feeling really overwhelmed.

Shawna: 00:05:43

Yeah, exactly. And so whether you're a parent, a clinician, or maybe just someone who loves watching a baby point at a dog and yell, dah.

Brittany: 00:05:49

That's me. That's totally me. Actually, funny story.

There's this restaurant on Highway 6 in Ontario, and my family for like a decade called it the Pointing Baby Restaurant. Oh, you reminded me when you said that.

Because I was there with my family one day, and we're all eating breakfast, and there was this cute little baby, and he pointed at me. So guess what I did? I pointed back. Obviously. I feel like that's the natural response. You imitate a baby that's happy looking at you.

And so for a decade, they called it the Pointy Baby Restaurant.

Shawna: 00:06:18

Aww, I love those. Early communication. Exactly.

Brittany: 00:06:23

He was communicating with me. I'm not going to shut him down. I'm going to respond right back. So we've got some learning objectives.

The first one is we're going to differentiate between speech and communication, or speech and language, and identify a variety and diverse forms of early communicative behavior.

So we want listeners to be able to distinguish between speech, which is like spoken words, and then broader forms of communication, and then recognize how these show up in early childhood development, especially for neurodivergent children.

Shawna: 00:06:51

Then we'll also look at understanding and applying neurodiversity affirming perspectives on language development.

We'll Use our clinical experience, as well as our experience as parents to explore how we can support communication in neuroaffirming ways, which means validating all forms of communication, not just speech, and reframing some of those developmental milestones and honoring individual learning trajectories. Yeah.

Brittany: 00:07:18

And then third, we'll look at describing foundational communication skills as outlined in the vbdt, which is Verbal Behavior Development Theory. So we'll talk about these things called behavioral cusps from the VD VBDT lens that precede vocal speech.

So things that come before vocalizations and how these contribute to language development over time.

Shawna: 00:07:39

Awesome. And just to add some clarity there, verbal behavior is a fancy term that we use in ABA to talk about all the different ways that we communicate.

And so I think a lot of the time, speech pathology is well known for its developmental approach to language and learning, and in ABA may be less well known for that.

And there's some really cool researchers in the ABA world trying to bridge that gap so that we can all be on the same page and speak about these milestones together and collaborate.

Brittany: 00:08:11

And I love learning about it because it makes me shift a little bit outside of my box or, like, think outside the box a little bit more and like, oh, yeah, I never thought of it from that perspective. And so we can learn so much from each other, which I hear from us all the time on the. On this podcast. All right. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:08:25

All right, let's start with the deceptively simple question, what is communication? Because we throw that word around a lot, and I actually think it is misused a lot. And people maybe think that it refers only to speech.

Brittany: 00:08:40

Definitely. And parents. Parents hear that all the time. Like, your child's communication skills are developing or. We're working on functional communication.

We certainly say that all the time. Even. We even call it fc. I think we use that acronym sometimes. But what are we actually talking about? Is it talking? Is it pointing? Is it tantrums?

Shawna: 00:08:59

And. Yeah, could be all the above or none of the above. Yeah, exactly.

Brittany: 00:09:03

So super clear.

Shawna: 00:09:04

Thank you.

You know, one of the biggest myths that we hear, especially from worried parents, is this idea that if a child isn't talking by a certain age, they're not communicating. And that's just never true. Right.

Every time we're doing an assessment, there's always a little guy coming in or a little girl coming in, and they're communicating us in so many ways.

Brittany: 00:09:24

Is.

Shawna: 00:09:25

And so definitely, I think, a misunderstanding of communication, for sure.

Brittany: 00:09:29

Just because they're not speaking with words, it's just one form of communication. And so it's often, sorry, it's never really the first way that kids communicate either. There are so many things that come before those first words.

Shawna: 00:09:42

Exactly.

And I think where that vbdt, the Verbal behavior developmental theory comes in is really looking at some of those early ways that we're communicating and some of the prerequisite skills, skills that babies are doing to get ready to have a more robust communication mechanisms. You know, they have them from an early age.

Babies can certainly communicate, but as they develop a bigger system or in my world, a topography of communication, we see them develop these prerequisite skills potentially like eye contact and some of those other things. All right, so let's unpack it from a behavior analytic lens. Communication is often defined by the function.

And that's one way that our sciences differ. Right. We say form versus function. And so I really value that collaborative relationship that we have where we can look at both.

And so when I say the function, I'm saying what the behavior does in the environment. So if a child screams and then the adult gives them that juice, then that scream was communication. They're saying, I want that and not so many words.

And so I think that's one way that we look at intentional behavior that affects another person's behavior. And so I have my two boys at home and my two year old is a biter. And as a behavior analyst, it's so tricky. And so I'm always looking at his behavior.

I'm like, why are you biting? Stop biting. And in his case, it's usually to say back off.

And so he's a pretty strong willed dude and if he wants something, he'll usually, usually he's got a lot of words and so he'll usually say like, that's mine. Right. But if the listener does not then give that to him, then he's pretty annoyed and then he will bite you.

And so in his case, the biting is communication to back off. And so there's an example of where we're looking at the function of the behavior as a form of communication.

Brittany: 00:11:48

And then you're. Because I've seen you do this so many times, not necessarily of witness the biting, but you're giving him those words in that moment.

Like, hey man, you can say this.

Shawna: 00:11:56

Yes. Well, I gave you a great example yesterday.

Brittany: 00:11:59

Yes.

Shawna: 00:12:00

And Then also my 4 year old can be like a little bit of agitator, you know, like he, he knows that his brother wants it. Last night he had this balloon and he's like, Kind of taunting with that.

And I was sort of busy, not really paying attention and I sort of caught the last end of it. And so I come in and my 2 year old is like about to hit. I heard him say that's mine, give it back. And so like very good communication.

Brittany: 00:12:24

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:12:25

But the four year old did not listen. Right. And so I'm coming in and I see my 2 year old's hand up, ready to hit up. And I'm like, oh, we don't hit. Like don't hit. Yeah.

And blocked is hitting. And then had my 4 year old give the balloon to him. He touched it and then I gave it back to the four year old. And then practice with my two year old.

Like we are not hitting here. Here's what you can do. You can say give it back. If they don't give it back, then you pick something else.

Brittany: 00:12:49

Good.

Shawna: 00:12:50

And then we're like working through that. So we did that actually several times back to back.

So we had lots of opportunities to practice what he should do because his biting as a form of communication is not appropriate and not something that I want to encourage for sure.

Brittany: 00:13:03

I like how you said you like go and practice that over and over again because it's. We say like teach the skills in the moment.

But then I've heard you say this a couple times, you'll like recreate the situation sometimes or say like, okay, we're gonna do that again and now let's practice again. Right in that moment.

Shawna: 00:13:17

Exactly. And oftentimes you'll find like the, my 2 year old, for example, he will say don't hit, no hitting.

Brittany: 00:13:23

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:13:24

But in the moment his brain is not able to regulate, you know, like he doesn't have the impulse, he doesn't have the emotion regulation skills. And so I can't really expect him to do that on his own. Right. My job as a parent is really to be that coach and be in there.

I want him to be coachable, really is my goal for him right now. It's like I don't want him to bite, of course, but that's almost unrealistic expectation.

And so at the very least I want him to be able to listen to me in those moments and be coachable. Yeah. And so that's where that practice comes in and we get, he gets lots of reinforcement for doing a good job.

We celebrate him and that sort of thing. And that way in the future, hopefully when these moments come up, he's more likely to listen to me anyways.

That's a long tangent he is cute, but he keeps me on my toes for sure.

Brittany: 00:14:09

All right, so coming back to what we were chatting about, you, we have this discussion about function and form quite a lot. And I think from an SLP's perspective, we're often looking at both.

So, of course, the function is very important to us, and how we use our language is very important, but we're also looking at the form. So I'm taught to look at grammar and those little pieces. Like, if a kid says that mine instead of that's mine, I'm noticing those little pieces.

Or if they're not pronouncing their words correctly, sometimes that's a goal, sometimes it's not. But I'm taught to look at all those little things.

So, yeah, like, that we come at it from a slightly different way, but we can really bring those together. And so then we're also looking at a broader range of communication.

Like, we are taught to look at it from, like, there's written language and then oral language. What are you understanding? What are you saying? Then we're looking at, how can we augment communication with aac?

Are you doing joint attention, Attention when I gaze, that kind of thing. So there's so many different layers that we're looking at. But of course, we try to really focus on intentionality.

So is, sorry, was a child trying to communicate something? And then I also want to talk about differentiating between speech and language. So saying there.

Like, we look at oral language and written language, and there's all these different, like, ways to talk about communication. But parents will often come to me, and they'll sort of confuse speech versus language. So they'll say, like, oh, we gotta see a speech therapist.

I need to work on speech. But what they mean is language, because maybe their child's not talking.

And so I'll say, like, actually, language is the system of words and rules that we use to communicate, but speech is how we say those sounds and words. And so we can certainly work on. I. I do work on both with different kinds of clients. But speech specifically is like, how we pronounce our sounds.

And for a lot of our learners, that's not a priority in the beginning, especially for early communicators. I'm telling parents, like, I'm really not focus on the speech at all. What we want is to expand their language.

So I want them to be able to say, go, help, stop mine. Those kind of things. And if it's a perfect adult model, I don't. I don't care at all. I.

You know, and I'll say to them, even if he says my for mine, take that and say that back and say like mine. Yeah, you're telling me mine. And that's really meaningful. And so that difference is really important.

Shawna: 00:16:30

Yeah, exactly. And I think with our neurodiverse learners, we know that speech can be challenging. Right.

And so I think the latest stat is around 40% of autistic individuals are non vocal. And then with other neurodiversities like adhd, we might see that using your words in a heightened moment can be challenging.

And so some of these other ways of communication can also be really effective. And something that you want to pull up on. A funny example I have at my house is both my babies did babysitter sign. Yeah.

And even now like my 4 year old sometimes will still do the sign for more as he says more like if I don't respond the first time that he says it, he's like, he'll like go into his whole system and I'll say more with the more sign. And then same with my 2 year old who talks a lot. He will still sign more like it's like ingrained in them, you know.

And so if they've, if they've said it once and I haven't listened, then sometimes they'll pair it with the gesture. And so fascinating to me.

Brittany: 00:17:31

Yeah, Yeah, I love that.

I'm thinking about some of the learners at the clinic too that communicate like we were talking about before they have spoken words or maybe we're never sure if it's like if they are going to develop spoken words. But we have a program at Elemento called Foundational Learning and we're trying to teach those early, early foundation skills.

And we've got a learner that sometimes you and I call Mr. G. And Mr. G will communicate so much by moving his body. And that tells us so.

I know for a while we were doing play chains with him and a lean back means he wants to do this cool fall playchain. So he's leaning back towards the clinician and then she's going to catch him versus a lean forward means a hug. And that's what I want.

And so by picking up on those subtle differences and whether it's a lean forward or lean back, he's communicating so much and he doesn't need to say fall or hug at that moment. We're honoring those differences in his body language.

Shawna: 00:18:27

Yeah, exactly. And we'll certainly dive into all those nuances there. And I do think that's where things get really interesting.

And we might see a child's behavior as like random. It seems like sort of out of the blue. So we think of like tossing a cup off a high chair. But maybe they're saying like, I'm all done with this.

Brittany: 00:18:45

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:18:46

Like again, last night at my dinner, my 2 year old said, I'm done, I'm done. But we didn't want him to be done. We want him to keep eating. Did not do anything when he said that. And guess what his next behavior was?

He threw his plate on the ground. Of course he did. Right. And so he's like, I told you twice, I'm done. No one responded to me. Does this work? My husband's so annoyed.

Why did you do that? Don't put your food on the floor. I'm like, well, you know what? He did tell us twice. He didn't respond.

Brittany: 00:19:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I love that he definitely communicates so many ways. He is such a fun kid. Yes.

Shawna: 00:19:23

And so I think that asks. We have to ask the question, when does behavior become communication?

Brittany: 00:19:28

Right. And then who also decide what counts?

And so there, you know, like you were saying with that example, actually your 2 year old was communicating and like your husband may have been frustrated by some behavior, but you're saying, hey man, that behavior was communication.

Shawna: 00:19:43

Pretty clear. Yeah, yeah, he tried twice and we ignored him, you know.

Brittany: 00:19:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But this on the same token, we have a lot of learners who will take someone's hand and direct them, and that's communicating too.

So when someone grabs your hand and pulls you to the fridge, that counts. That's communication and it deserves to be celebrated and then built upon.

So if we're saying, hey, if you're feeling a child kind of pull your hand towards the fridge, you're gonna go, snack, snack, and you want a snack and you're gonna model that for them.

And so we encourage those strategies, obviously, like telling your child that word that you think they would be saying if they were speaking and then repeating it. So I usually say that like golden rule of three, like snacks, snack, snack. Oh, you want a snack?

And then you're modeling that functional communication for them.

Shawna: 00:20:30

Yeah, exactly.

I think some of the things that we see often with the neurodiverse learners when we're doing assessments and stuff will be that they'll do leading, so leading parent, maybe to something that they want. Another thing that we might see is looking up to something. Third way that we often see communication would be like a point or like a reach. Right.

Or push away.

Brittany: 00:20:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:20:54

And then sometimes we'll see, like, maladaptive behaviors where they'll, like, tantrum or become upset about something. And I think those are all forms of communication. And then there's even more nuanced ways that we communicate. Like you were highlighting with Mr. G.

Right.

And so as a parent, if I have a child that's maybe not meeting my expectations for their communication milestones, I want to think about all these different ways that they might be communicating and like you said, try and build on them in new ways. Days.

Brittany: 00:21:24

Yeah, exactly. So let's kind of pause there and talk a little bit about milestones. That's often a question that comes up. It's odd for me.

I know seeing a speech pathologist is often triggered from a pediatrician or a family physician saying, oh, you're not meeting the milestone, so you need to go see a speech pathologist. And that's sort of when parents started. Start to notice those differences. And then we. They come to us often.

So, you know, we'll hear things like, your child should have 50 words as a milestone, or for age 2, or, oh, they're not combining words yet. And certainly those markers can be helpful.

And I know from, again, from a speech lens or speech pathology lens, they can be helpful in guiding us, like, oh, do we need a little bit more support? Or should we be looking at different things here? But they can also create a ton of pressure.

Shawna: 00:22:12

Yeah, exactly. And like, talking is great, and we certainly track that. Right. But communication is bigger than just talking.

And when we focus only on the work words, we might be missing the message.

Brittany: 00:22:22

Yes, yes, yes.

So I love that opportunity when we do get to assess our young learners and showing parents like, hey, they're actually communicating pretty clearly here, just like you did with Tim last night.

Shawna: 00:22:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then if they're not maybe meeting those vocal speech milestones, then we might look at why, you know, what's going on there.

And then we also clinically know or professionally know know. What are some of those markers that we're looking for? Right. Are they getting new topographies of communication?

So are they developing new ways to communicate week to week or day to day? Are you seeing that? And so there's a while. Sure. The milestone is 50 words.

We might look at some other markers to see if their communication is growing.

Brittany: 00:23:08

Yeah, yeah. I often tell parents, like, are they understanding new words? So could they. If you're looking in a book, could they show you something like, hey, I.

I see a dog. Do you see that, too? And then See if the child's gonna point to something.

And are they learning these new words faster than they're like, they may be understanding words when they're not expressing. So even looking at those sort of differences and then helping us to understand.

Okay, like you said, why maybe are they not adding to their vocal speaking repertoire?

Shawna: 00:23:36

Yeah, exactly. Actually just reminded me of when you came and assessed my firstborn.

He was maybe 12 months old, and I can't even remember what the Milestone is there.

Brittany: 00:23:46

Five, four words, 10 words at 12 months. Yeah. We went into them usually saying their first word or like. Yeah.

Shawna: 00:23:51

And so I, as a behavior analyst, of course, was tracking everything. I have a list of his first 100 foods. I have a list of, like, everything that he did. My second born, I have none of those things.

And so I remember with him, I was like, can you just come and take a look at this? I'm feeling a bit worried. And you did, like, a standardized assessment with me.

And during the assessment with him, he said, like, three words in the assessment. And, like, I think he filled in, like, ready, set, go. And he, like, made an approximation for bubbles. I think he said car.

And you're like, yeah, I think everything's fine, Shauna. He's. He's definitely speaking and like. Or trying to.

It's not like, obviously he wasn't saying car perfectly or anything, but just put my mind at ease.

Brittany: 00:24:37

So let's ground this conversation to something familiar. Early speech and language milestones. That's usually where parents start to notice those difference or get feedback from professionals.

So certainly, as a speech pathologist, a lot of parents will come to me because their pediatrician or their family physician has said to them, your child's not meeting these milestones.

Shawna: 00:24:58

Yeah, exactly. And talking is great, but communication is so much bigger than talking.

And when we focus only on their speech and words, then we are missing probably all those other ways that they're communicating with us, and we risk missing their message.

Brittany: 00:25:12

And not all kids develop language in the same way or at the same speed. Certainly, communication is not a straight line, and it's messy. It's not linear, especially for our neurodivergent kids.

Shawna: 00:25:22

Yeah, exactly. And so let's dive into a little bit of science here.

As I mentioned, there is a whole body of research and behavior analysis that is spearheaded by one of my favorite researchers, Douglas Greer, called the Verbal Behavior Development the theory, or vbdt, as we're affectionately calling it today, that helps us understand how language actually unfolds. And it shows us that before vocal Speech ever happened. Kids are learning all kinds of important pre vocal skills in behavior analysis.

We call them behavioral cusps. And these are like a fancy term for little turning points in development that open the door to a whole new learning opportunities.

One example that comes to mind is orienting to faces.

You know, when a baby starts turning their sweet little head toward the sound of your voice or looking at you during play, then it opens up opportunities for them to learn your facial expressions and the sounds that you're making and your eye gaze. And then another one that comes to mind is, we call it generalized imitation.

Clinically, but colloquially it just means the ability to copy what others are doing. So like waving or clapping. And really we see that's how our typically developing children are learning.

They're observing others and then seeing what they're doing and either imitating it or emulating it, so putting their own, own spin on it in the real world.

And so while these don't look like language to someone that's focused on speech, they really are the foundation of communication and language development. And so if they don't have these foundations, then they're probably going to struggle to meet some of these other communication milestones.

And certainly that's something that we see at the clinic.

And why we have that foundational learning program that you talked about earlier is because we really want to set a strong foundation for the children to then build on their communication skills.

Because if they don't yet find human faces or voices reinforcing or they don't have the ability to imitate, they're likely missing some of those like pieces that they really need to be a strong communicator.

Brittany: 00:27:26

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And so if a child does come into us and into the clinic and they're 18 months, two years, something like that, and they're not meeting those milestones, that's when we get curious to say, okay, are they meeting some of those other small, not smaller, but like, precursor kind of things? And if they. They are, we see that a lot too. Then we've got a different program, right? And we call it let's get Talking.

And I'm showing parents these early language strategies to encourage speech and language and encourage their communication by doing little temptations for the child to use communication a little more naturally in their environment.

But if we are noticing that they're not doing these things like looking at us, orienting towards us, being enjoy looking at our faces like you said, then we are often been changing things a little bit and we're looking at A little bit of a different path.

Shawna: 00:28:13

Yeah, exactly. And the VBDT outlines these verbal developmental capabilities.

So the ability to imitate sounds or follow multi step instructions or engage in conversational turn taking. It's all of these foundations that often explain why some kids take off with language and some don't.

Brittany: 00:28:32

Yeah, exactly. So for an example, we recently had an assessment at the clinic, a little of group girl that we worked with.

I think she was around 2 and she was barely saying any words, but she could gesture. She was actually so communicative. She was pointing, nodding, waving, dragging her mom across the room.

She was so intentional with her communication and she really wanted to connect, but she wasn't at the stage where she could make sounds and imitate sounds. Which meant that that vocal speech wasn't taking off yet.

Shawna: 00:29:00

Yeah, exactly. And imitation is one of those early developmental capabilities that we talk about about.

If a kid isn't able to repeat what you're saying or match your actions, we might need to build that skill first before expecting them to produce language. Otherwise we're just waiting around for speech like it's gonna happen out of nowhere.

Brittany: 00:29:19

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And sometimes it does. You know, with some kids it does. Especially if you're using lots of play and connection and being really responsive.

And so that's what we'll teach parents if they're not doing those things yet. But then often we need to create the connection for communication in order for that to emerge.

Which is why we do things like we call them play chains, but they're play where there's a lot of back and forth happening between the two communication partners.

Shawna: 00:29:42

Yeah, exactly.

Brittany: 00:29:43

So true. So on the same token, sometimes again when parents come in, I'm encouraging them and informing them what words can count and what things look like.

Like if a child is saying moo ba la la la. One of my favorite books now. But if they're saying animal sounds, you know, names of people or parts of songs, even signs, those all count.

And I count those in their, you know, communicative acts. And so definitely I'll track a child's words.

But the big takeaway for our early neurodivergent communicators is if, whether a child is connecting, if they're engaged with us or with their family and their, their parents, if they're trying to make something happen in their environment, then they're communicating.

Shawna: 00:30:23

Yeah, exactly. And if we stick with their spoken words, then we're going to miss so much of those early communications modes by the learner.

And so we're looking at, like waving their eye contact, reaching, sharing attention, shared laughter. All of those sort of early verbal or pre vocal skills.

Brittany: 00:30:45

Yeah, Honestly, one of the things I say to parents all the time is your. Your child is actually already communicating and you know your child better than anyone.

But I can show you how they're communicating and then how you can encourage, encourage and shape those skills that. That shift is so powerful.

Shawna: 00:30:59

Yeah, exactly.

And one of the things I love about the verbal behavior developmental theory by Douglas Greer is that we can then start identifying where in their communication system they might benefit from some support. Not just how do we get them to say cookie, but do they have the skills that allow their language to grow?

Brittany: 00:31:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like the ability to respond to those social. Those social cues. So are they noticing? You always call it genie syndrome.

Like if I say something, am I like to my listener or are things disappearing when I say things? So, like, are they picking up on those play routines? Are they learning through observation and imitation?

With early, typically developing children at such a young age, they love imitating us. So if you make a funny face, they're going to do something back to you. Or if you tilt your head back and forth, they're going to do that too.

And so if they're not doing those things, then maybe that's where we want to start and build those imitation skills.

Shawna: 00:31:53

Yeah, exactly.

And one of the things I love as a behavior analyst is I work mostly with young autistic individuals and they have the most interesting communication speech profiles.

And occasionally the number of assessments that we've done where the child has a low number of ways that they communicate, maybe they lead and point are sort of their two modes of communication. But then they can read words or can say the Alphabet from start to finish. They might be able to label 100 animals.

But when they're labeling the animals, they're not really looking up to anyone. Or if you ask them what is it, they're not kind of responding to those types of questions. And so the behavior is not necessarily communicative.

It's something that they enjoy doing.

But then they're missing some of those skills to then learn how to ask for help or some of those really important communicative functions or how to communicate that they're excited and like those types of things.

And so I love that about our job that we're often meeting, meeting such unique and interesting individuals that have a very interesting learning profile and communication profile.

Brittany: 00:33:06

Yeah, it reminds me of that client that came in who could count to 20.

I think it Was and could, like, name the order of the planets and, like, tell you all these colors and really cool things, but couldn't tell you to stop or go or help.

Shawna: 00:33:23

Yeah, exactly. I love that about our autistic learners that we have the opportunity to work with.

And then the verbal behavior development theory gives us a nice framework to identify what gaps there might be to help them use that language in more environments. Right. Oftentimes it's like, they show us what they know under their own conditions. It's not something that I like.

I said, I can't just ask them, what is this? Or can you count to 20? Or what are the planets? And it's a social interaction.

And it's like, I don't know, something in their brain is thinking about the planets, and then they start listing them. And so we know that they can learn the planets from start to finish. But how do I make that something that's more socially mediated?

And that's one of the things I love about the verbal behavior approach.

Brittany: 00:34:11

Yeah. And I've learned that from you, too.

Like, just because a child can ask for something doesn't mean they can label it or doesn't mean they can talk about it if the object's not there. Like, there's so many in speech, we sort of think like, okay, he can express the word. So we're good now. We can he understand it? Can he express it?

That using a verbal behavior approach. Right. We're looking at, can he. Like, so many different operands that I won't get into.

But, like, can, you know, if the child is hungry, are they asking for an apple? Or then can they label an apple if you show them a picture? Or could you say, you know, this every day makes the doctor go away.

What am I talking about? Like, there's different ways.

Shawna: 00:34:47

Right.

Brittany: 00:34:47

That it doesn't just mean, like, since they have it in one, then it's automatically in those other buckets.

Shawna: 00:34:51

Exactly.

And it sounds really messy, but it's a good way of looking at language and making sure that we are not missing anything in their language development. Because when you start looking at communication through this broader developmental lens, you start thinking about what you're doing in practice.

And are you missing some of these prerequisite skills? And have you just been kind of hoping and praying that speech is coming? Yeah, for sure.

And then we also want to think about, like, what's been accepted in our fields and realizing that there's a lot of nuances here and it's very complex.

Brittany: 00:35:25

Yeah. Like, let's be honest Both fields, I think, have some unhelpful things.

Like in SLP therapy, parents often feel that this pressure to get their kids to talk fast. So they come in and they're worried that their child isn't speaking. And the assumption is like, let's get them to use words.

And at this point, sometimes we'll take a step back and explain, maybe they're not ready for spoken words yet.

So like we were talking about, if they don't have those foundational skills like imitating or attending, and attending is a fancy word that just kind of means like, am I noticing you as my communication partner? And are they enjoying interaction actions if they're not doing those things and pushing for speech doesn't help, and it can actually backfire.

And it's a hard conversation to explain, and it's hard to sort of explain our rationale there.

But if I'm expecting vocal speech fast and they're not doing these other things, then it likely is going to backfire because then there's a lot of pressure put on the child to communicate. And the parents are frustrated because they're not going to see that progress fastened enough.

But what we want to do is shift to say, hey, we're actually going to make the progress to noticing these other things and building on some of those foundational skills.

And so we're like, if we're totally focused on just words and that child's not ready for it, we're missing those communication opportunities for connection and then expanding their skills.

Shawna: 00:36:43

Exactly.

And that's certainly been a big shift for me professionally as newer research has come out over the last decade, better defining these prerequisite skills or other milestones that are predictive of being a good communicator.

And so I've certainly been changing my practices and following some of these awesome researchers that are looking at all of these small skills that are contributing to developing great communicators.

And in aba, we certainly have our own drawbacks or concerns around teaching communication, where I think as behavior analysts, people often think that we're very focused on requesting, or we call them mans, because who doesn't want the kid to be able to ask for juice?

Brittany: 00:37:33

Right?

Shawna: 00:37:34

And then we often focus on mans because we are working with autistic individuals and requesting is a really powerful way to realize the power of communication. Right. If I request juice and I get juice. Ah, okay.

There's a reason to communicate and sort of looking at the social deficits that are associated with our autistic learners. But often we get so focused on that output of, like, juice. Juice.

Say juice and you'll get that juice that we skip over some of the foundational stuff, right? Like those gestures and other ways that they might be communicating.

And so what we really look at at the clinic right now for our early intervention clients does the child understand that communication can influence others?

And that's where oftentimes, mands or requests are a nice way to teach that, because then they realize the power of whatever the behavior is, whether it's saying juice, whether it's reaching, etc, they realize that they are able to have some control over other people's behavior. And so there's also this idea in aba, especially old school aba, that language is something that you can shape purely through reinforcement.

And sure, reinforcement matters, but it's not the only thing.

And there's a social, like, you identified a social emotional engine underneath all of it, where connection, reciprocity, affect, sharing, that shared laughter, joint attention. And that you don't just train all those into existence. Right. It's made through connection, play chains, joy, fun, for sure.

Brittany: 00:39:07

Yeah. I feel like one of my biggest shifts. You were just talking about how you've sort of shifted in the last, last decade or so of practicing.

But one of my shifts is, like, just slowing down and tuning into what the child is doing again. I think we talked about this in the last episode. Like, we're in my masters. We're taught to, like, identify those things the child is doing wrong.

Like, what kind of label can I put on you for a disorder? What words are you not saying? That kind of thing? And so shifting and turning into, like, what is the child doing? What are their strengths?

And then building it from there. So. So if a kid is making some silly vocalizations, like, that's not nonsense. I'm saying, like, that's early play with sounds. We love that.

It's a sign they're exploring. And you want to encourage that and jump in and echo those sounds, because that's imitation and that's turn taking. Just like me pointing at that baby.

We're, like, really building those early imitation skills. And like, hey, this can be a fun interaction for sure.

Shawna: 00:40:02

And for myself, I like progress. I want the kids to make so much progress so, so fast.

And so I used to see those early sounds and jump on them, be like, I gotta shape this into a word. I'm gonna make this ma into cup, right?

Brittany: 00:40:14

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:40:15

And now I see them more as, like, communication that's happening. So if we have a client that say, mama, mama while looking at his cup and so my old me would say, okay, this is a man in the making.

I can jump in and shape this into cup. But more than that, now I'm looking at it. Oh, he's asking. It's like a bid for help. He's making a noise to say, I can't reach my cup.

Brittany: 00:40:36

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:40:37

He's initiating with me. Him saying, like, engage with me. Right. And so those are, like, really powerful communication milestones that sometimes get glossed over.

And so that shift in thinking can completely change how we write goals, too.

So instead of saying the client will label 10 animals, we might start by saying that they'll engage in shared attention routines with a communication partner or respond to social bids with a gesture, a vocalization, or a gift. Gays.

Brittany: 00:41:05

Yeah. Can you explain a social bid?

Shawna: 00:41:08

Yeah. Like, if I said, come here anything. Right.

Brittany: 00:41:12

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:41:12

Presented sort of any social opportunity to them that then they would respond to that.

Brittany: 00:41:17

Right.

Shawna: 00:41:18

So at the clinic level, we're often trying to create these play chains, and so we'll often use, like, a song or something with them. And so if I start singing that song, how long does it take for them to come and approach me? And that's something that our team probes every month.

How long does it take for the child to come to me if I'm doing nothing? Nothing.

Brittany: 00:41:37

Right.

Shawna: 00:41:37

If I'm just sitting in the corner, will they kind of stick to their own stuff? Or will they come and seek out that social interaction?

Or if I start a playchain that I know that they usually like, how long is it taking for them to jump into that playchain and participate? And then how long do they stay with me before then they want to go back and do their own thing?

And so those are some of the things that we're looking for at a clinic level to track some of those early, early foundational skills.

Brittany: 00:42:02

Yeah. And how often are they, like, taking turns in these predictable routines like you said? Or how long were they planning persist?

Like, if they need help with something, are they going to persist or are they going to kind of give up? And we see that a lot, too.

And so a lot of these skills like we're talking about are just part of the foundation skills that they need, and they're strong. And then when we look at these, like, we're working with that solid foundation.

Shawna: 00:42:25

Yeah, exactly. Let's go into some myth busting on that. No, love this.

Brittany: 00:42:30

There are so many myths in our. Both of our professions. But what I want to talk about today, myth number one, is, is that speech is Always the goal.

Shawna: 00:42:38

Yeah, exactly. And certainly I have felt that as a early clinician.

I'm so thankful for some of the amazing researchers in applied behavior analysis like Douglas Greer Espinosa, who we've talked about before. Greg Hanley is another really good one where no, speech isn't the goal. Autonomy Agency, connection. Oh, I got to give a shout out to Tamara Casper.

Yes, yes, yes, Connection piece. And so if that comes through as, then, like, speech is great. But signs, gestures, speech generating devices, cheeky eyebrow raise.

I'll take all of them.

Brittany: 00:43:17

We're good. Exactly. And some kids actually communicate more consistently without speech.

I was just on a parent meeting this morning with a school and the mom was asking a little bit about this myth that, like, I want speech to be my goal.

And the teacher and the speech pathologist was actually saying, saying like, we've noticed with data that he actually tends to go to the device a little bit more. And so, you know, and mom said, oh, yeah, you're kind of right. Like when he is talking, it's often not to a person.

And so he's talking and using some words, but I can't ever get him to say go or stop or help, but he'll go to the device to do that.

Shawna: 00:43:52

Right.

Brittany: 00:43:52

Which was interesting. And so it was like talking and mom was worried.

Another myth that, oh, if we put in any other source of communication like a board or a speech generating device, that he'll stop speaking. Speaking, right.

Shawna: 00:44:03

Yeah, exactly. And really the speech generating devices or those like a low tech tool like a board, help develop that skill of why we communicate.

What is communication? In behavior analysis, we would refer to it as stimulus control. And we have lots of learners that say many words.

But like I was kind of saying before, not under like specific conditions that I can predict, you know, like not when I say what is it? Or not after I say hi, they say hi back. That sort of thing. They might say say hi, but no one might be around.

And so maybe not understanding the function of high, but they like the sound of it and they like the way that it feels in their mouth or something like that. And so certainly still very exciting to hear their voice and kind of what's going on in their head.

But these other tools can help us really help them understand why communication is so powerful and beneficial.

Brittany: 00:44:52

Yeah, yeah, it was a really interesting conversation.

And again, it was me as a private SLP with the SLP at the school and a parent, and I think she was raising these very valid concerns that does this mean we're Giving up on speech. And I, we both of us thankfully were stepped in right away to say no, no, like absolutely, we're not giving up on talking.

He has a lot of words that he says and we're always going to honor that and always going to encourage it. But what we find is he is kind of gravitating to that device. And so we want to honor all forms of communication.

And if he puts it on the device, I'm not going to then make him say it, but. Or if he says it, I'm not going to also make him, you know, like punish him by saying, oh know you, oh no, you have to speak on your device.

We're really prioritizing that connection. So if he points to something or uses an SGD to indicate something and he's looking at a communication partner, then that's that connection.

And we want to honor all forms of communication.

Shawna: 00:45:46

Yeah, exactly. And like along that connection line, one of my big aha moments as a behavior analyst and as a parent is that ignoring isn't non compliance.

And certainly as a behavior analyst, I am always looking with my, or was looking with my firstborn anyways for signs of autism because that's what I live and breathe.

And so if he wasn't responding to his name, then I might feel like, oh gosh, I better start an intervention and I'll put a treatment plan together for him to do that. But then I paused and I thought about it and like, he's not being like non compliant.

It's not that he hears me saying his name and is choosing not to respond to me is that he hasn't learned yet about shared attention. And, and so instead of expecting him to join my world, I joined his and built up that connection.

And sure enough, you met the milestone whenever it comes up, I can't remember.

Brittany: 00:46:39

But yeah, yeah, I felt the same with my kids for sure. But it is a shift, right?

Like another example that I can think of, I remember working with another toddler who wasn't using words but her eyes communicated so much.

So when we were playing a social game like peekaboo, their eyes would just sparkle and light up and you know, you can you sometimes say like smiling with your eyes. Like she definitely did that. So every time I sort of paused and had like a big dramatic face, she'd squeal and like that was joyful.

That was communication. And so it wasn't like a checklist type goal. It was that connection.

And once we treated that as the target, everything else followed like joint attention, vocalizations and then eventually with this learner, she did start talking.

Shawna: 00:47:17

Yeah, exactly. And that reminds me of another thing that we often hear at the clinic is like, their child doesn't play, right?

Brittany: 00:47:23

Oh, yes, yes.

Shawna: 00:47:24

And as a behavior tech, I don't know, like 10, 15 years ago, we did teach kids to play, right?

Brittany: 00:47:30

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:30

I gotta tell you, it was always like banging my head against a wall.

Brittany: 00:47:33

Right.

Shawna: 00:47:34

Because we would teach them all these actions to do with a cow and a horse on a farm. They did not care about a cow and a horse on a farm.

Brittany: 00:47:41

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:42

And so I just felt like we never were able to move beyond just like basic imitation, you know, like. And so now when we're meeting with these parents that are saying their child's not playing. Right.

I feel so much better clinically saying, let's just like, drop that word.

Brittany: 00:47:55

Right? Yeah.

Shawna: 00:47:56

What is play? It's like, things that you find interesting and joyful and want to explore, right?

Brittany: 00:48:03

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:48:04

It doesn't have to be a right way to play, though. I know. Again, historically, when we look at the history of autism, I think lining things up was punished, right?

You're taught to, like, mess up the line. Don't let them do that. And now at the clinic, like, we don't stop lining things up. We join in on lining things up and try and build on it.

Actually, let's line up more stuff and that's what you want to do. And so we'll make up our own lines beside them and see if they like that. See if they like us joining in on their lines.

I would say oftentimes they don't want us really joining in on their lines because I think they've got a different plan than what we are thinking. And so what we're looking for is that shared enjoyment.

Do they look up and show us that they like that we're copying them, or are they pushing us away saying, get out of here. Right. And picking up up on those communication behaviors of likes and dislikes.

And so what we want to do is jump in, in those play interactions that they're doing and honor what they're.

Brittany: 00:48:58

Already engaged in and honoring that communication. If they aren't enjoying us messing with their line or lining up beside them, then we're teaching that communication to say, nope, I don't like that.

Please stop. But that's the heart of neuro affirming work. And we love what we do.

So we're not just saying we're letting go of goals, we're letting go of some of the Control, like, you don't have to do it mil way for it to be. Right.

And I can picture, like a lot of assessment checklists around, specifically around play, which is in both of our domains, but certainly speech pathology. We look at play and we look at like, are they doing. Are they taking turns? Are they doing this?

And often one of the things on the checklist is appropriate play.

Shawna: 00:49:38

Right.

Brittany: 00:49:39

And like, what is appropriate play?

Shawna: 00:49:40

Right.

Brittany: 00:49:41

We see that all the time. Like, there's no. How would you define appropriate play? There isn't. You can't.

Shawna: 00:49:45

Right.

Brittany: 00:49:46

If I like to, you know, take slime and smear on the wall, like, cool. We can work with.

Shawna: 00:49:52

Yeah.

Brittany: 00:49:53

Again, like Tammy Casper, huge shout out to her. She teaches us so much about how to look at something the child does really enjoy. What's like the sense potentially there's like a sensory match.

Like, if they like that slime feeling, then what other things can we do to kind of match that same sensory. Because they're going to like that. And then we can build off that and build that connection.

Shawna: 00:50:13

Exactly. I think there's two important distinctions there. Somewhat relevant to our topic today. Today.

One being sometimes they'll have things that they just want to do alone. Don't try and insert yourself. Like, you know, like, if they're telling you no, take the no. That's a really strong communication for sure.

And then if there is something like the slime on the walls, maybe you might like finger painting. We could try that together.

Maybe you don't want me to join in the slime on the wall, but maybe I could then create this really joyful opportunity for us to do finger painting together or something like that.

Brittany: 00:50:42

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:50:43

All right, let's dive into myth number two. All behavior. Behavior is communication.

Brittany: 00:50:48

I'm nervous to say this one because a lot of SLPs say this all the time.

And certainly, like, I've wondered about this and I, like, was really excited for you and I to talk about it because I'm like, okay, what do I believe? I don't know. Do I believe that all behavior is communication? And I actually learned from some of our SLP BCBA mentors.

I want to say it was Nikia Dower, so shout out to her who shared that not every behavior is a message. And I was like leaning into this. I want to learn more because again, it's like said all the time. And so some examples.

I don't remember the exact examples that she gave, but here thinking about some examples, like sometimes kids flap their hands cause it feels good. Or sometimes they throw toys. Cause gravity is so fun, you know.

And so an example, like you said with your 2 year old last night, like that was a message when he threw his plate off. But often it's just like, hey, that cup falls cool. That sound, that is fun. And so there is a difference there.

And so we don't want to over interpret everything.

Shawna: 00:51:43

Yes, exactly. And sometimes behavior is communication, but it's not meant for you.

Brittany: 00:51:49

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:51:50

A child might be talking to themselves, regulating processing, sometimes what we call scripting. And that's not problem behavior. It could be self expression.

And so some of those common misconceptions are that they're just parroting or it's not real language. And again, like 10, 15 years ago, if a child was scripting, that was problematic and we were intervening. Right, right.

Whereas now we're seeing sort of the power of scripting in regulation and also getting like a little window into what they're thinking about what their brain's doing. Right. It could just be fun. Uh, and the other thing I would say is like most of us could not script the way that our neurodivergent friends do.

Like we've got some kids at the clinic that can script a whole episode of a show.

Brittany: 00:52:29

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:52:30

You know, like my brain just like could never do that. And neither could my children.

Brittany: 00:52:33

No, exactly.

Shawna: 00:52:34

Just like. So anyways, I think we want to move from just calling it parroting or it's not real language.

Brittany: 00:52:41

Right, right.

Shawna: 00:52:42

To looking at if it is communicative or not. Because we also have learners that use scripts from shows to communicate, to say, I don't like that. That you have like a script from a show.

Like they might say, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. And we know that that means I don't like that. Other people probably don't.

And so it's not until we've seen that behavior a few times that we're then able really to understand if it was communicative or looking sort of at what happened right before the behavior to figure out if. Yeah, okay. Yeah. They were probably trying to tell me, like back off.

Um, and then so we're looking at reframing what we call echolalia clinically to either be exploratory, something that they like and is fun, serving a regulatory function, or sometimes a communicative function and then bringing.

Tying back into that verbal behavior developmental theory, echoics, which is the repeating of words and parroting our critical developmental mental cusps and not necessarily bad habits.

Brittany: 00:53:43

Yeah. And I wanted to add it can even be processing. Right.

So if I'm saying get the blue cup and they say get the blue cup, sometimes it's helping them process the language we hypothesize could be too.

Shawna: 00:53:54

Yeah. We often say that if you find that you're in.

Your child is repeating back a question, it could be part of them trying to figure out what you're saying, you know, giving them time, like, oh, you said can you get the red cup? Okay.

Brittany: 00:54:06

Yep. Right.

Shawna: 00:54:08

And then they're able to add in their response at the end. And certainly there's therapeutic techniques that we can use to help them. Usually it's building out their language skills, really.

And then you see that sort of naturally decline on its own again. Ten, 15 years ago, we would interrupt them.

Brittany: 00:54:22

Right.

Shawna: 00:54:22

Give them that correct response, run a transfer trial. Like we had this whole procedure around it.

Brittany: 00:54:27

Right.

Shawna: 00:54:27

Whereas now it's kind of like, you know what, let's build up their language and see if this sort of just decreases on its own.

Brittany: 00:54:32

Yeah.

Shawna: 00:54:32

And oftentimes that's what we see.

Brittany: 00:54:34

And so I, I think what we're trying to say is like something before that we would have treated. Now we're recognizing, recognizing that there could be a different function to it. So it may be they're processing their language.

It could be self soothing even. Right. Like we. I worked with someone once who would hum to himself during these transitions.

And a team member came to me and was like, hey, what's this interesting speech thing that he's doing? And I was like, okay, why it's working for him? I don't think it's something that we need to replace with a functional equivalent. It just feels good.

And so every time he's like excited, he's kind of humming, humming. And we'll notice them behavior like rocking back and forth with it.

And so for that individual, we kind of hypothesized that the function of that humming and like vocalizing was to feel good. And so we're not going to take that away from him.

Shawna: 00:55:18

Yeah, for sure. It actually reminds me of an interesting treatment approach that we'll take sometimes at the clinic because sometimes humming can be problematic.

So I've had a couple of learners over the years where maybe a bit louder than a hum.

Brittany: 00:55:33

Yeah, yeah.

Shawna: 00:55:34

And throughout the classroom. And so it's quite disruptive to the other members of the classroom.

They weren't eligible to like, there's no other space that they could go for learning and that sort of thing.

And so what we did, and I've done this A few times now and seen some pretty cool results is we'll give them headphones and then try out, like, white noise, brown noise, some of their favorite songs, and see how they respond to that and if they're able to focus. Because sometimes the humming is like an auditory input that serves a regulatory function for them in a classroom, classroom environment.

And so they were able to sit and attend and be a part of the classroom with just low level white noise over headphones or something like that.

And so sometimes we can get kind of curious about the behavior and see if we think it's serving, in my world, an automatic function where it just, like, feels good to the learner or, like, regulatory, Then we can get kind of curious and see if there's another way that we could match the same. If we think that it's, like, problematic and should be be addressed. Is there something like a matched thing that we can then add in?

And in my case, I've almost always seen it be an appropriate option.

Brittany: 00:56:40

Cool. All right. So if we had to sum it all up, we talked about a lot today.

Shawna: 00:56:44

We did. We'd say communication is bigger than words.

Brittany: 00:56:47

Yep.

Shawna: 00:56:48

Connection comes before compliance, or connection is trumps compliance.

Brittany: 00:56:53

Yes, yes.

Shawna: 00:56:54

And play doesn't have to look like. It doesn't on Pinterest.

Brittany: 00:56:58

Oh, my gosh. Yes. For sure, for sure, for sure. We've again, like, changed the way that we do that.

So while I think in the clinic and like, like I was talking about that sensory matching and like, play can look in so many different forms. So let's tune into what the child is doing and then follow their lead a little bit more.

Shawna: 00:57:14

Yeah, exactly. We have those aha moments.

They come from shifting how we see the kids we're supporting, not from pushing more programs, but for noticing the moments that are already communicating, just maybe in a form we weren't trained to look for in our graduate degree programs.

Brittany: 00:57:29

For sure.

And so if you're a therapist or a parent thinking that, like, Wade, have been doing this all wrong, like, you haven't, we're very often saying on the podcast how we've changed so much in the last five years, 10 years. And like, we always say you're. We know better, we do better.

And so now we have some new info and we're just doing better now with the information that we have.

Shawna: 00:57:49

Yeah, exactly. Thanks so much for joining us today. Next time, we're going to dive into something that ties right into all of this.

This, their early identification of autism. Because when we broaden how we define communication, connection and learning. We also have to broaden how we recognize neurodivergence for sure.

Brittany: 00:58:05

Yeah, we'll talk about what those early sounds actually look like. We touched on it a little bit today.

But then also how to spot strengths alongside differences and so how we as a system can do better for parents, professionals but most importantly our kids.

Shawna: 00:58:19

Yeah, exactly. Because identification shouldn't be be about labeling what's missing, it should be about seeing what's there.

Brittany: 00:58:24

See you next time on Neurodiversely speaking.

Shawna: 00:58:27

Thanks for listening.

Brittany: 00:58:30

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

Shawna: 00:58:39

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space but we'll always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

Brittany: 00:58:51

See you next time.

Shawna: 00:58:52

Bye.